Death And Grief Resources (with Laura Jaye Cramer)

[00:00:01] How about this one? At least they're not suffering anymore. Yikes. Yeah. F you. I'd rather they stay here and suffer, thank you. That would actually be better for me. Death and Grief Resources

[00:00:26] Hello everyone, I'm your host, Victor M. Sweeney, licensed mortician and unlicensed friend. Well, I like to think I'm your friend anyway. I am one of the people, I hope in your life, if you're listening, that will help you navigate this strange world in which we live between birth and death. Today we have a very interesting guest. Her name is Laura Kramer.

[00:00:53] And she runs a periodical, a grief resource, called Candlelight Magazine. In our discussion today, we do talk about suicide a fair bit. We talk about death, obviously, but we talk a lot about just these beautiful things that connect us and the importance of connection. And the importance of knowing that people are there for you.

[00:01:20] So before I begin, I do want you to know that this is not an end-all, be-all, or a catch-all list of every grief resource available. But the greatest resource I think we do have is each other. And Laura does a very lovely job of putting together a periodical that brings people together in a very intentional and wonderful way, where we each get to glean a little something from it.

[00:01:49] As we are together here now, there's always the element of the show on Death And that I very much enjoy, where I get to answer questions. And not that I am the greatest grief resource there is. I'm just some guy hacking out a living as an undertaker. But I've seen a lot of things. And let's see what we have in the grab bag for questions today.

[00:02:19] Here's a question. Good question. From Cindy Johnston. What do you do with cremated ashes that nobody wants? So this is interesting. Anytime we have an indigent pass away, generally they also don't have any funds. So we'll provide services for free. And generally the county will help provide some kind of stipend to offset our... We take a loss every time. That's just the way it works. But they help offset that.

[00:02:49] And typically a person, an indigent, will be cremated. And then we, or maybe their next of kin if there is any, or a guardian, or some kind of state-appointed person, will have to determine what's best. And so oftentimes, at least where I live, if they happen to be a Catholic, we'll bury them for free in the Catholic cemetery. Or if they are a Protestant or a non-believer, we'll bury them in the city cemetery in my town. Interestingly enough, a couple years ago this very thing happened.

[00:03:18] We had a gentleman pass away who didn't have any connections. He had a brother who I don't think had anything to do with him. And so we cremated him, and we buried him in the city cemetery. And lo and behold, almost a decade later, a child came out of the woodwork. And he had to prove it. But sure enough, a child came out of the woodwork.

[00:03:39] And because we had buried dad's remains, instead of scattering them or something, I was able to actually dig them up and send them to the sun, where he could put them back home with his dad's forefathers. So sometimes there are happy endings, and sometimes they just become residents of our town, and we try to love them as best we can. But that is the way it is. I think everybody deserves a decent burial, whatever that might look like.

[00:04:09] Thank you, Cindy. Oh, here's a question I like from our friend Jay. Do you think AI will take over jobs in the funeral industry? Okay, so I personally think we're going to be one of the last holdouts. Accountants better watch their back. All those other computer jobs better take heed. Funeral service will be the last one, I think. It's like that and the other oldest profession, you know.

[00:04:35] But I think funeral service and, you know, the unsavory one are going to be the last two holdouts from AI. And when that shark is jumped, maybe that is when we will finally wake up and see what a wreck and what a mess AI has been. Dare I say a mistake? When the robot shows up to cart your grandma off to the body disposal facility run by Jeff Bezos. Then we will know we've gone too far.

[00:05:04] And maybe we'll claw our way back. I say that tongue in cheek. Although maybe I'm serious. Thanks, Jay. Thanks for all the wonderful questions today. I say it every time that it's a pleasure. But it really is to hear from you and hear what is on your mind about death.

[00:05:31] Because as you will listen to in our discussion with Laura Kramer, it's not something that we are going to escape. And so to hear other people's experiences, or in this case to hear what is on the minds and hearts of others, maybe it'll help us somewhere along the way. So thank you. If you would like to send a question to death and, I would encourage you to go to deathandpodcast.com

[00:06:01] and you can leave a voice memo, which is very fun, or a message. Or you may go to deathandpodcast at gmail.com and send us an email. Reach out. Let us know. One thing I do like is time to time, I mean, to be honest, every week, I'll receive an email or two from people saying, Hey, Victor, I listened to your podcast and I found it thought-provoking and I really liked it. And here's my story. And I get to just hear, not a question,

[00:06:30] but just someone's, a little snippet of someone's life. And they can share it with me and I can share back with them. And it's those connections that I've found have really encouraged me along the way. When I think I'm screaming into the void and no one is listening, someone reaches out and quickly teaches me otherwise. So thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you for your patience as we've gotten to the point of jumping into the interview.

[00:06:57] I hope you enjoy listening to us as much as I enjoyed speaking with her. So give it a listen. See what resources we discuss tickle your fancy. And at a certain point, Laura actually will provide us with a list. So check out the show notes. The list is there. And see if that is something that might help you, dear listener. Here we go.

[00:07:24] We always recommend Shopify. It took us from an idea to a real business. We got set up, I think, in less than a day with very little effort. We could just focus on the supply chains and the product development. Shopify gives us the ability to customize without the complexity.

[00:07:51] We can change something without introducing fragility or having to pay a developer. We're Thirsty Turtle and we leveled up our business with Shopify. Start your free trial at shopify.com slash au. Today, our guest is Laura Kramer. She runs Cowboy Media and Marketing and is the founder of Candlelight Magazine, a periodical about grief.

[00:08:16] And she wrote that she started this after experiencing the loss of both her father and brother to suicide in close succession. They cover topics like post-traumatic growth, bereavement, leave law, grief rituals across cultures, and many, many more. That's Candlelight Magazine. Laura, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you for such a nice intro. It means a lot coming from you. I only just recently learned you actually are a fan of the show and watch it. Yes, I do.

[00:08:44] The most recent episode I listened to was maybe two months ago, and it was Finding Home, I believe was the title. Oh, yes, with Daniel Nayeri. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, fellow writer. So there were lots of little nuggets that I was sort of like, oh, yeah, I should get my journal out while I'm listening to this. It was great. Well, so you're a writer yourself. In addition to getting the magazine together, you contribute as well. So for this magazine, I write sometimes.

[00:09:12] I mostly do the editing. But, yeah, my background is in journalism. So that's, I had not to age myself, I don't know, 10, 15 years of magazine newspaper experience before I started my own publication. And so that indeed then was brought about by the death of your brother and your dad. Can you, I mean, without having to, like, get into the nitty gritty, would you just walk us through that?

[00:09:40] Because I do think that these sorts of terrible, I mean terrible, formative experiences really do change you. And I found that the other folks that I know that have gone through similar, very life-altering experiences do tend to diverge onto a new path afterward. So can you walk us through that? Yeah, so that's funny. I found that too. And by the way, Victor, I don't really mind getting into the nitty gritty of anything.

[00:10:09] I think that, I don't know, my whole shtick now is talking about suicide because it's, A, something I'm thinking about constantly just because of my background. And B, I think it's important to talk about it. So to answer your question, yes, in 20, I guess it was 2021, both my dad and my brother died by suicide. So my dad was first. It was in, I actually know the date very well.

[00:10:37] He, I guess I won't get into the details of how, but it happened on my sister's birthday at the end of June. Yeah, I know. I know. And then my brother died, I guess about three months later in, towards the end of September. So. That's a hard year. Yeah. No. Not a good year. You know, it's very interesting.

[00:11:05] So I, you, maybe, you know, I lost my best friend to suicide in 2018. I do know. And that, that is one of those watershed moments for me that I think drastically changed the way that I thought. And it impacted my career, obviously impacted my life.

[00:11:26] But something, there's just that, these, how strenuous those times are and how people want to make light of it. Right. And I think that is something that's really tough because when you go through it in a very personal way, people want to like, they want to placate you or they want to try to comfort you.

[00:11:48] And I, I personally don't know if there is any comfort that comes after suicide other than just the sheer passing of time and trying to just carry on with your own life. Because that's, that's what I've found. I do, I want to ask you, I'm so interested in what to say to people when death occurs. And I want to hear about that.

[00:12:16] But to your point, I agree. Aside from the actual death and loss of, of the bulk of my family, the weirdest part was seeing how people acted around me. And boy, did I seem to make people uncomfortable. And. Oh, yes. No one, no one wants to talk about it. And. And yeah, what, what do you, what do you say?

[00:12:43] And, and the thing is, as a recipient, as a recipient of it, there's really nothing anybody can say that makes you feel any better. What I usually say is this. I was, I was actually, I have a friend who lost his wife just recently. And I was over at his house last night and we were just sitting in the dark chit chatting, you know? And I was like, man, you know, the thing about death, it really sucks. Death really sucks. And I had somebody tell me that once.

[00:13:11] I had them take me aside and they said, Victor, you know what the thing about death is? And I'm waiting. I'm waiting for this, this beautiful moment of clarity. Yeah. Or this moment of just profound wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. And this old man goes, it really sucks. And that, and that honestly. He's right. That has gotten me really far because I think it's true. And people generally react well to it.

[00:13:37] Not that you're trying to elicit a response, but they, they react well to it because it's factual. And also I think you as the person who says it and believes it and lives it, you let your guard down for a minute because it's something unexpected. People don't, people want to tell you something like, oh, they're in a better place. Oh man, the worst. At least, how about this one? How about this one? At least they're not suffering anymore. Yikes. Yeah. Like, F you. I'd rather they stay here and suffer. Thank you. That would actually be better for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:07] It's, it's crazy. And I was joking about this with my mom. We were like, oh, we want to start like a, a journal of just writing down people's reactions. And like, to be clear, to mock them. Like we, we were at a place. Okay. That's the only good way to do that. Actually, Laura. We were, we were at this place where we were like, oh my gosh, this is, this is just like bananas. The way that people are talking to us and like, we're traumatized.

[00:14:36] So we're going to forget it. We have got to write down these weird things that people are saying. Um, and yeah, I, I, I make fun of people planning for the way that they dealt with me afterwards. And also like the, the reasonable, compassionate side of me is so aware that there's, it's, um, you know, that sucks. Yeah. I mean, you're just, you're trying to fill the void with words, which is nigh impossible. I know. Do you find, okay. So do you find some years out?

[00:15:06] So here's, here's the, the terrible thing. And I hope, I hope my buddy's mom isn't listening to this. I'm not one for gallows humor, by the way. I don't really like it. Uh, but when it comes to Alex, it's kind of like, it's kind of my middle finger to him a little bit. I get it. Do you find yourself doing that? Cause I, I know, I know, I know you should not, uh, speak ill of the dead. Sometimes, sometimes I'll be like, oh man, Alex really loved this. Except, you know, he's a dead body now. Yeah.

[00:15:35] Uh, or when a friend of mine and I, we try to take a pilgrimage every year out to his burial site. And before we go, like, usually we'll sit down and we'll cry for a little bit. We'll hug each other for a little bit. We'll walk around and have a smoke. And then usually before we go, we, we moon him. I love that. Uh, so, you know, you look, you look both ways and then you drop your pants and moon him before you leave. I love that. Uh, because there is, there's kind of an indignity.

[00:16:03] I do think about suicide that, um, you know, folks on the internet have, have criticized me. I, I was on, I was on, uh, another program and I said, well, when people commit suicide, I try not to judge them too much. And I had some folks, you know, across the web, well, you shouldn't judge them at all. It's really hard. You should try to be nice and sympathize. I'm like, you know, I actually, it's made my life terrible. And I think I can judge and say suicide is pretty bad and no one should do it. Uh, like, I think that judgment is okay.

[00:16:33] And then on a practical side, when you're dealing with someone who is, you know, when you're dealing with one quarter of a head after a gunshot or something, I do kind of judge them a little bit because they've made my life really bad. And I now have to see the inside of their skull and, you know, clean brains off of their clothes when they come back to me.

[00:16:54] So, you know, you balance it though, because you also have to learn to love who they leave behind and you have to learn to love them for what they, for what they are. Even, even if they've done something, you know, by all accounts evil, if I can say that without too much judgment, um, you still have to learn to love them. Have you found that to be the case with your brother and your dad? You still have to love them? This is so fascinating to me because I don't know. So there are two sides of me.

[00:17:22] There's one side where I'm like big middle finger. I'm furious at you for what you've done to me. And then I have another side that is so empathetic and so, so much nicer than, than that first side.

[00:17:47] And so I do, I have to tell you, I go back and forth between, between anger and, and a lot of acceptance. And, um, and it's, it's so, grief is so funny because last night I was gardening and I was talking in my head to myself about suicide. And I was having this exact conversation where, you know, I don't, um, I know, I think this is where we differ. I'm not religious.

[00:18:14] So there's not any, um, type of, type of moral slant to it. It's, it's more about just. Selfishness. Which, I mean, I think I am a hundred percent guilty of. So no judgment there. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I just, and like, I'm working at capacity. All I can do is see it through my perspective. Yeah.

[00:18:39] And, um, some days my perspective is so sweet and some days my perspective is a real bad word. Yeah. Well, that's, see, and that's the thing too. Cause I, I, I've, I really, you know, I don't know if it's empathy or sympathy. I don't know what it is. I, I usually use the word pity, um, and not in like a very condescending way, but like, I feel bad for anybody that has to A, reach that point. Yeah.

[00:19:06] And anybody who, as we say, completes suicide, right? Right. Like for both of those are terrible. And I just, I feel sad that anybody has to get that way. And I mean, for, for myself, I was the last person to talk to my friend. I guess this is a leading question. No, please. There's a lot of guilt associated. And like, by the way, I'm not the first person to say this, but there's generally when suicide happens, there's a lot of guilt there. It's, it's a very complex type of grief, right?

[00:19:36] Yeah. So, so do you, are you nice to yourself about it or? Yeah. I, I don't feel guilty about it. Um, I, you know, it's one of those where we loved each other enough that I think if he wanted me to know, he would have told me. Yeah. So my wife was pregnant with our third child. And I just found out I was having a girl, my first two were boys. And so I called him and he's like, oh, cool, man. All right, cool. I'll talk to you in a couple of days. And then I was the last person he called before he hanged himself.

[00:20:05] That one, sorry to interrupt. That one is frustrating because, you know, I do find myself, um, I'll have these moments where I'm just like, who would want to miss this? So I remember right after, I guess it was right after my brother died. I went to New Orleans where, um, one of my, my best friend lives. And, uh, what's, what are the, they're called third lines? The. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. One of the big funeral parades came by. I have a podcast episode about that too. Do you?

[00:20:35] I haven't heard that one. Oh, listen, I, um, man, I love New Orleans, but, um, there was this, this beautiful celebration and, and it was, and it was like, so on the nose for what I was going through. But I just remember looking around and I, I'm not a huge crier. I burst into tears because I just couldn't get over the fact. I was thinking like, who would want to miss this? And I should be really clear. That's not how mental illness works.

[00:21:04] No, not at all. No, not at all. No, you're exactly right. No, that's, that's the thing. But I, but I think about that. I thought about that constantly. Yeah. You know, I, I, now just confession. I'm a huge crier. I cry at everything and I cry at movies and I cry at books. Every time I hear the Lord of the Rings theme where Sam is carrying Frodo, I can just, I can just hear the music and I cry. Um, so I'm a big crier. So like I, I was just weeping when my daughter was born and then that just went right into weeping about Alex.

[00:21:34] Yeah. And, and yeah. And, and how, how do you miss these things? But the thing is like, yeah, nobody, nobody who does that to themselves is thinking about that. And that's, and that's all, and that's all the more, um, pitiful, I guess, if I can use the word. Like it's, it's really, really sad. Um, like I, I, I wish I could share that, you know, or like I think all the time I'm like, man, he was 28. He'll be 28 forever. I'll, I'll double his age before I know it.

[00:22:03] And I will think of all the things that he missed. So if I may, I heard something recently that really resonated with me. And because I'm a writer, I'm a language person. I'm really type A about the type of language that's used around that, right? So, um, and, and everything.

[00:22:25] Um, so the, um, what I heard recently was, um, I really wish I could remember where I heard this, but, um, someone was saying that some illnesses are terminal. So when I'm talking about someone who's passed away from cancer, for example, I would not like, I would not use the words lost their battle to cancer.

[00:22:52] And I do think, and I, I understand why I understand free will. I, I get it. I, I do think that there's sort of a disconnect where someone who has, um, who is just as sick, who has mental illness, it's terminal. I know where you heard it. Where did I hear it? It was Martin Short speaking. It was Martin Short. I saw, it was Martin Short. The wisdom of Martin Short.

[00:23:22] Yeah. But the thing is, yeah, that, that sort of wisdom can come from everywhere. And I think, and I think that's worth discussing, uh, because it's, I don't believe in, in determinism, right? Right. Like you say, I believe in free will. But there is a certain point at which, you know, does a person who takes their life, do they have full, do they have full control? Right?

[00:23:48] Even, even the Catholic Church would teach something like, okay, so clearly it's a grave issue. But do they fully choose it? Do they have full consent? Do they have full will? Do they have full intention and knowledge of everything that's going to happen as a result of this? Like, look at it. No. You know, so, so yeah. Like, could, can we talk about, you know, a certain, a certain species of mental illness that has suicide cooked in there a little bit?

[00:24:15] Um, is that something that is terminal? Maybe it is sometimes. I don't know. Maybe it is. Uh, uh, you know, again, I have these two sides. I have this really nice, empathetic side and I have this giant B word side where I think, um, I think it is a preventable death. But I don't, it's silly that I'm, I'm about to say this on a podcast.

[00:24:43] Like, I don't go around just saying that. No, you can say it here. This is a very, this is a very open forum. Well, you know, I, I go back and forth between, okay, this is a terminal illness and this is something that's very preventable. I would say 90% of the time I'm in the camp that suicide is a preventable death.

[00:25:05] And, um, and there's something that, uh, that I hear a lot, which is like, well, you know, typically if, if people could just make it through one, just one more day, um, because our, our feelings do ebb and flow. And, um, I don't know. I, I don't know. My, my family didn't, didn't make it to that next day.

[00:25:31] So I guess I'm, I'm sort of, that's a very hopeful thought where I think maybe in another dimension, another lifetime, they, they made it that, that one more day. Well, I mean, in PSA, um, if you're thinking about suicide, please don't, please don't. I mean, I, I can't tell you how many suicides I've dealt with now.

[00:25:54] And it's universally like, I, I've had it happen where it's somebody who, you know, you would even, even me on paper, I'm like, oh, this is actually a pretty small circle of influence that's getting crushed by this suicide. And then it turns out that it's actually huge. So even if you think you are alone, I promise you, dear listener, you are absolutely not. There, there are people out there who know you and love you.

[00:26:21] There are people out there who probably don't know you and love you, who will also be crushed by this. Death is anybody who has to die. I mean, everybody will have to do it someday. But anybody who goes so quickly, the hole that is left behind is unimaginable. And I will say there are resources and there are free resources in this economy. I love anything that's free.

[00:26:51] I love free stuff. And I, you know, I clearly pay, pay, I spend a lot of time and energy and money keeping my own mental health under control. That's not the only way to do it. There are free resources. And if I can just plug my magazine, we include them. We include them on the back cover of every issue of Candlelight magazine. And it's interesting because there are all, there are all sorts of groups there. You can call just a general suicide hotline.

[00:27:20] There are groups for LGBTQ plus individuals, indigenous people, teens. You know, you can find a group of like-minded people who will help you out and they'll do it for free. And I think that's the, you know, I go back and forth also about whether or not being as connected to each other as we are is a good thing or a bad thing.

[00:27:46] But I do think in cases like when you need help and you can't afford to find it, there are resources. Let me ask you about the genesis of your magazine. So your magazine, if I do my math, is five years old? Something like that? No, I did not start. I did not start Candlelight magazine right away. When I, right, oh gosh, no. After, right after my dad and my brother died, I was on another planet just fully.

[00:28:17] I've been on that planet. You, you know the planet. I was on that planet and there was no, there was no starting a business and trying to be a productive member of society. So you're not, you're not as type A as you think, Laura. It was the first, you know what?

[00:28:35] It was the first time I've taken a real break and, and, you know, my body was literally breaking down and I eventually had to listen to it, which is not something I like to do. I like to power through things and I was having these crazy side effects from just powering through and, and, you know, our brains are so interesting. They really, really affect our bodies.

[00:29:03] So, um, I had to slow down. Can I tell you about mine? Yeah, yeah. Tell me. So when Alex died, I found afterward, I made it through the funeral. Okay. I helped like his parents coordinate some stuff and I, I'd wanted to do, I'd actually wanted to go pick him up from where he died and bring him back to the funeral home in the town where he was buried. But I, I couldn't do it. I was, I just couldn't.

[00:29:32] But, um, afterward I found out that I couldn't drive at night anymore, which is a pretty important part of the job as it turns out. Um, and I was having panic attacks, uh, every time the phone would ring at night. And I remember distinctly, it was sometime in, it must've been December and I was driving and it was like the lightest possible snow for Minnesota. So this is just child's play, right? Yeah. And I am white knuckling the steering wheel. My whole body is rigid.

[00:30:00] I've, I've scooted the seat back and I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, uh, driving 40 miles an hour on a 65 mile an hour road to go to the hospital where this lady has died. Yes. And then I got into the room and everything was cool and everything was normal and everything was fine. I got her loaded in the van. Everything was hunky dory. And then I just drove like a statue the next 30 miles home. And every night after that, I would just hate when the phone would ring.

[00:30:29] And then also I couldn't ride with my family in the car. So we'd go out for whatever, lunch or something. And my wife would have to drive. I couldn't drive. Um, I could drive myself during the day and that was it. Um, so it is weird how these things manifest. And I, you know, for all appearances, I should know what I'm doing, but I, it just, it's the strangest thing. That's that particular kind of stress. I don't know how it manifests in you. How did it manifest in you?

[00:30:56] Well, I was just going to say, you, you, you mentioned like you of all people should be able to handle it. And that's the thing with your body. Your body doesn't know what your career and your body doesn't care what your career is. Um, and you know, almost the exact same thing. I was getting panic attacks. Um, and to the point where I was passing out, my body was just. That was always my fear. Cause I'm also a fainter. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:19] I was never a fainter before, but, um, but the first time, um, it happened, I was trying to, I was trying to power through. I was like, Oh, I just need to find something that I love doing. And I'm going to have, I'm going to have a really nice day. I like will myself to have a nice day. I went horseback riding. I fainted while I was on a horse and I fell. I literally fell off the horse.

[00:31:43] Um, and I will tell you, Victor, to this day, I don't have a driver's license anymore because I, it was, um, it was getting to the point where I think I never fainted while I was driving. But I think in total I passed out, but I don't know, multiple times have stitches all along my chin from smacking my chin on pavement.

[00:32:08] Usually I have to tell you, I, I looked up some digital copies of your magazine and it really is. I was describing it just to a friend earlier. I, it's really beautiful. You have a really beautiful magazine. Thank you. That's very kind. Like I said, coming from you, it means a lot coming from any, I mean, I, I hope that everyone is able to find something that they like in it.

[00:32:33] And that's sort of the goal is to touch on a range of topics and have a range of different types of pieces within each issue. But, um, but that's very kind. Thank you. But no, I mean, there's something to be said about trying to reach a lot of people because there are, I mean, there are just so many different kinds of grief. Um, I was dealing with someone recently who I would count as a friend and, um, his dad died and, uh, he's like a full grown man. Right.

[00:33:03] And he's like, I'm not over it. I'm like crying every day. It's been months and months and months. And I just can't, I'm just one of those people that I don't think I can move on. And so we were talking about grief resources and I, I live in, I live in a food desert as well as a resource desert. So we do not have a lot of grief resources close at hand where I live in the middle of nowhere.

[00:33:21] Um, I should send him this magazine, I think, cause there's, there's got to be something, you know, in, in the, uh, in your kind of broad web of grief topics that would reach him, I think. And, and not that it's going to fix it. Right. Cause that's not the goal. No, that's, that's, that's not the goal with, you know, I'm so my, my bullshit meter just go like when someone thinks that there's a quick fix to, to really anything, but especially grief.

[00:33:51] I'm like, what? You sound ridiculous. Um, give me your friend's information. I'll send him, I'll send him some copies, but. I will do that. Yeah. Yeah. Working on Candlelight is so interesting because as you know so well, there's, there is a lot of information to cover. I'm never going to run out of new information, new coverage.

[00:34:16] There's just always going to be a ton of work, um, to do there. But something that I find because I talk to, um, I hear from a lot of the readers and we actually have an advice column. We work with a wonderful grief therapist. She, she writes that. What a wonderful idea. And she's the best. Her name is Michelle Smith. And I believe she works in Oklahoma. I believe she's based in Oklahoma.

[00:34:41] So I'm based in Seattle, um, but she's based in Oklahoma and I believe a fairly rural area, um, as well. And, and she is whip smart. She is gracious and kind and, um, and gives wonderful advice. A lot of the advice that I hear her giving is when people are experiencing grief, they're not sure if they're doing, I wonder if you've heard this too. They're not sure if they're doing it correctly.

[00:35:12] I knew exactly where you were going as you started that sentence. And I felt the same way when my dad and my brother died. I was like, oh, I think I'm, I think I'm losing it. I don't think this, I don't think this is what it's supposed to be. No, it's in, it's in. So having, having now gone through a very acute loss, it's very interesting. So for instance, my, my friend who recently lost his wife, right? The first, the first thing that we're talking about is like, you don't have to feel any particular way.

[00:35:42] If you want to be mad, awesome. If you want to be relieved, totally fine. And don't, you know, and it's interesting because whatever the family dynamics there were, there were some other, um, you know, just some other influences right along the way that we're trying to, um, you know, buck up. Everything's going to be okay. And it's like, you don't, you don't have to do that. You don't actually, you can feel however you want. If anybody tells you otherwise, come to me and I'll tell them to shut up. Yeah. Like this is, this is how this works. And, and it's, it's so funny because you tell that. Okay.

[00:36:12] So you tell that to the, the 45 year old widower. Um, you can also tell that to the 80 year old widow. Like no one has to tell you he's in a better place. You can feel however you like. And if, if you need someone to, you know, eat your grief for a little bit, you can come to me. Yes. I'll help you.

[00:36:30] Uh, and I'll tell other people to back away or we can, we can set up something built into the funeral process that serves you to have quiet time or alone time or close yourself in my chapel and scream at your husband time. It doesn't matter to me. Yeah. Um, but it's very, it's very, very interesting because that is, that's the case. That's the case. There are no rules. There's no guidebook. Um, I write about this in my book, but my experience is not yours.

[00:37:00] I mean, I remember, so Alex died and the next day my dad's like, aren't you angry about it? Angry about it. I haven't even thought about being angry. Mostly I'm just crying all the time. Uh, and I don't even know if I ever got angry about it. I got disappointed and I got a little, uh, a little catty when I talk with him, but I, you know, I moon him, but I, uh, I do my annual mooning, but I don't have to feel angry.

[00:37:27] And, and, but it's just interesting that I, I really, I really don't believe there is any roadmap. So good on you for answering people's, allowing people to, to get their particular pieces of advice answered. Cause I think that's the only way is to do it one person at a time. Yeah. And you know, you, when you read, I don't know.

[00:37:54] I think you can see the themes through, through all of the questions. So a question that is off the top of my head, there was someone who was like, oh, my mom has a new boyfriend. First new boyfriend since my dad died. I have to have Thanksgiving with them. What do I do? That's not applicable to me. Maybe. Maybe.

[00:38:17] However, there is, there is wisdom and there is, there are little nuggets that you can take from, from any of the advice. And more importantly, it's, it's kind of just nice to know that you're not, that you're not alone, that there is this community of people who are like, oh my God, I am dreading Thanksgiving. I, I don't know. Misery loves company. Join the club. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:43] I want, I want, I, I, I like crave hearing that people know what it feels like. And I, and to be clear, I don't want people to know what it feels like. It sucks. However, when other people have similar experiences or maybe even barely similar experiences, there's something, there's something you can learn from that.

[00:39:08] And I, I find that so, I find the, the community aspect of death really fascinating. Yeah. Well, because it always comes about, you know, my, I have a lot of people that I am close with now in my town because we met through death. I mean, that's the only way I meet people really, but we're really, really close because we just had to go through this hard thing together. Right.

[00:39:34] And, um, I think that's really why, you know, as far as building community, that's why I always tell people, like, if you want to learn about the human condition, don't read, um, don't read self-help. Just read fiction. Just read fiction and drop yourself in a hundred other shoes on different planets in different places in different times that maybe don't even exist. But do that. And I think there's something, we talk about literature, right? Like there's death all over literature. Right. There's suicide all over literature. Right.

[00:40:02] Um, and you can just drop yourself in these different experiences, even if it's just for a moment. Um, and maybe it doesn't even inform the way you go about things. You know, I, I've dealt with families that have dealt with suicide. I've worked on people, bodies that have, you know, people that have committed suicide long before Alex died. And I don't know if that had any bearing on what it was like when I went through it myself.

[00:40:27] But yeah, the, yeah, the fact that you know others are there is, is almost enough. It's about all you're going to get. So it's good. It's good. It's there. That's a, that's what you have. So deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, let me know if I have this right. The town you live in is small. You said 16,000 in a different name? 1600. 1600. It's small. Yes.

[00:40:54] And so you have this really great group in a town that's so small. I guess, you know, small sample size, but I like to think that that proves that you can find community. Oh, yes. It's, you know, I don't know, death and taxes. Everyone deals with it.

[00:41:16] So, and it's, there's nobody alive who has managed to avoid having death impact their life in some small way. And sometimes I think you'll get a very well-intentioned person who'd be like, this is just like when my grandpa died. Yeah. Which thankfully doesn't happen that often, I don't find. But the fact is there, everyone will have stumbled across the path of death at some point.

[00:41:42] And I say probably stumbled across the path of death because death is just making its way. It sure is. And there is nothing you're going to do about it. But, so yeah, the thing is, it's like this great universal that if you're a magazine, if Candlelight Magazine is kind of pulling from every direction, there's got to be something in those pages that speaks to you, dear reader. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:09] And I think that's a very noble, noble goal. Tell me, tell me this. Why is it called Candlelight? Because I think, to my mind, it's a very evocative title. Why did you go with that? Okay. Well, I would like to hear your perspective, of course. It was, I really value simplicity. I really value imagery that seems simple but actually carries a lot of weight.

[00:42:39] That's my favorite theme. Something that seems simple or pedestrian or everyday is, I think, the most interesting part of life. And when I'm reading obituaries, I'm always struck by, you know, people are just like, oh, she loved gardening. She loved animals. These are simple things and they're beautiful.

[00:43:07] Gardening is beautiful and animals are beautiful. So I was trying to, within that theme, think of something that was appropriate, could work for multiple demographics. We don't focus on one religion. We talk about religion and spirituality, but we don't focus on one.

[00:43:30] And I wanted something that could speak to a very broad audience because our audience is broad. Like you just said, it touches everyone. So it's not like I'm thinking, oh, okay, this needs to really hit the mark for men in their 30s. It's not like that. I have to be able to speak to Americans generally. And it's difficult. I think sometimes simplifying. Simpling. I like that.

[00:44:00] Nothing wrong with simplifying. I am all for being a simpleton. So here's my observation. So like my first kind of deconstructions of it, I like that it's a light in the darkness. Like it implies there is darkness and it is light. In a weird ecclesiastical Catholic sense, candles generally have to be made of beeswax. And they say there's a symbolism. There's like the man-made part of the wax and there's like the light of the flame.

[00:44:30] But then there's also the separate element of the light that is given off. Right? And these are like three distinct entities. So I like that candle light is actually the third entity that is like substantially broader than just like flame on a wick. What was the second element? You said? There's the candle, the flame, and the light. Oh, okay. Yeah. No, so it's interesting that actually it's the broadest element, the light itself that takes the name. If you called it candle wick, that would be less evocative, I think. It's snappy. It's not exactly what I was going for.

[00:45:00] But yes, so when I was doing research, it's Catholicism. There's so many religions. And every religion likes candles, let's face it. Who doesn't like candles? Yeah. I think you're doing a very valuable thing. And I think the genre you've picked is especially hard. Yeah. Like you say, if you're thinking about death and thinking about suicide all the time, that's a hard position to put yourself in. Yeah.

[00:45:29] And I am very sympathetic because I think about death all the time every day. But here's the thing. You put yourself in that environment. You choose to start Candlelight Magazine. You put yourself in this environment. But have you found that it's healing? Has it healed you in some small way to just now throw yourself into the maisma of suicide and death?

[00:45:59] Has it healed you at all? Yeah. So just to be so specific, we don't just talk about death by suicide. It's death. Well, of course. Of course. But for your own situation. Yeah. Okay. So for my own situation, I see. I started Candlelight as an art project just for myself because whenever I'm always – I'm so glad the camera is pointing this way and not this way.

[00:46:26] So you can't see my desk, which is covered in so many different projects. I love working. When I'm not working, I have to be doing something with my hands. So when I was really deep in grief, I just started making a zine for myself. And probably because my background is in magazines, it's what I know how to do. So I wanted something that kind of had a direction so that I could try and focus because I was having such a hard time focusing. And I just made a little zine for myself.

[00:46:56] And I liked it. But I showed it to a couple of people who were in a grief group with me. And the response was really positive. It was so flattering. The response was so positive. And I kept hearing that people wished that they had something like that when they were in a funeral home, when they were in a hospital, when they had to spend lots of time in palliative care.

[00:47:24] They wanted something like that that they could physically put their hands on, first of all, just to get a little bit of grounding. And then also that had something a little bit deeper or helpful or provocative. Hopeful. Hopeful. And specifically not hope in a you're going to get over this way. Just hope in a really genuine way.

[00:47:52] I love, at the end of the day, I love beautiful writing. And that's what's going to resonate with me. And so I just wanted to be able to work on something that I thought was beautiful and important. That's all you could ask for. That's all I think you can ask to do after something like that is to do something both beautiful and important. I know I have just loved our conversation. I wish it could just go on and on.

[00:48:19] And I expect that it could because I have about 10 different directions I'd want to follow that avenue and discuss. But tell me this. Tell our friends that are listening. If they want to find your magazine, where's the best place to find you, Laura? So the best place to find Candlelight Magazine is at waitingroompublishing.com. That's the entire company. We have Candlelight Magazine.

[00:48:46] We have three other publications that are geared towards seniors. So it's waitingroompublishing.com. And if you find this interesting, if you work particularly in a business that works for end of life, anything, anyone in the end of life industry, if you're interested, we're about to run a program where we're able to give out free subscriptions to businesses.

[00:49:16] And the goal of that actually is I want it to be more broadly available. So that's an offering. If that sounds like that might work for you, you should email me. And if you just want a copy, there are always digital copies to read online for free. Beautiful, beautiful. Laura, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:49:40] This has been honestly a distinct pleasure, and I am so grateful for you, and I wish you the best. Thank you so much, Victor. Thank you for having me. I'm always struck about titles. The title of my book, Now Departing, I will admit to you, I did not come up with. I struggled. It was easy for me to write the book, harder for me to title it. And I keep coming back to what a beautiful title this is, Candlelight, The Light in the Darkness.

[00:50:11] It implies that it is the brighter thing. Maybe the connection between everybody is the brighter thing that comes from the physicality, right? The candle of the magazine, let's say. But really what's important is the light. What strikes your heart as you read, as you just view the pretty pictures. Maybe there's serenity or a little hope, knowing that you are not alone. I'm right there with you, dear listener.

[00:50:40] I have experienced my share of grief. I think often that's why I entered the profession, even though I didn't know it at the time. I entered the profession because I knew a thing or two about grief already. And I've learned a lot more along the way. I don't think I am a particularly wise person. I don't know if I should be the face of this platform talking about death and grief and life. I don't know.

[00:51:09] But I do know we're all in it together, as I've said before. And I think it's also a kind of ironic delight that the parent group of Candlelight Magazine is waiting room publishing. Are we not all in the waiting room together? And what are we waiting for? Are we waiting for death?

[00:51:36] Is it okay to wait, to take our time, to know that someday our number will be called and we will be next? And I think those of you that are looking for grief resources, that are in this waiting room when it's hard, when it's hard to know what's next, when it's hard to wait, for those of you that need grief resources, honestly, go online.

[00:52:04] Almost every locality has a support group of some kind. And if not that, how about the shoulder of a friend? Tell your friends you love them. Tell them you care about them. Call your family. Call your mom and dad. Check in on them. I sometimes think it's my own, I call it my filial duty. Right? My duty as a son.

[00:52:34] Because we need that connection, folks. We need it. It's good for us. We're all in the waiting room. We're all hoping to get a snatch of the light of the candle of life. So thank you for being here. Know that I value you all very deeply. I love you very much. Until we see you next week, I am your licensed mortician, and unlicensed friend,

[00:53:03] Victor M. Sweeney. That was a massive city of the Weaver. Have a great day. I love you.