Death And Restoration (with Contessa King)

[00:00:00] I once had someone tell my wife, they're like, how would you let him touch you with those hands? He's done terrible things with them. Would anybody say that to a nurse, a surgeon? No.

[00:00:24] Death and Restoration. I'm your host, Victor M. Sweeney, Licensed Funeral Director, Unlicensed Podcaster. Today, we have an episode about restoration, or as it's sometimes known, restorative art. That is the reconstruction and re-presentation of the dead with a particular mind to those that are wounded in various ways,

[00:00:53] whether that's by illness or by violence, by accident. But bringing those dead back to a way in which they are acceptable to see, to say goodbye to them, and all the science and the craft and the artistry that underpins any sort of restorative art. Our guest today, Contessa King, she's a funeral director,

[00:01:18] and primarily known, in the social media world anyway, for being a dang good restorative artist. I found that she's only 26, so she's fairly new in the game. And yet she's already really quite renowned, speaking at conferences, traveling around the world, rubbing shoulders with morticians and plastic surgeons and prostheticians,

[00:01:48] just doing things that I couldn't imagine doing at 26 in service of our industry. Now, I say our, you know, with Contessa and I both being funeral directors and balmers. But there's also a part of ownership that I like to think is in the show. This is our show. It's not just mine, right? You get to listen for free. I ask you for nothing.

[00:02:14] If you like, you can pay for a cup of coffee, in air quotes, on Cameo, and drop me a couple bucks for your time, and I'll answer a question for you in a more immediate fashion. But the fact is, I ask for nothing. I just want to make a show that I can be proud of, and that we, you and I, dear listener, can enjoy. We can have in our ear and look back and say, that was a discussion worth having. And I think our discussion with Contessa today is worth having.

[00:02:44] It meanders around a bit, but that's part of what makes it fun. And I always regret, I always regret that we don't just leave the cameras rolling as we sign off, because inevitably we create a sort of blooper reel, which I'll tell you more about at the end. Before we get to the interview and we get to the end, and my ruminations on our discussion today with Contessa, I want to answer some questions. That's something we always do and something that I think is very valuable.

[00:03:13] In a profession shrouded with mystery, it is my honor to answer your mortuary questions, your death questions. Let's see what they are today. Here's a question from Katie. Katie, can you explain what happens to bodies when left in water?

[00:03:37] I've been watching videos of cars being found underwater after days, months, years, decades. What is left to be found? Just bones. Ugh, God, Katie, why would you spend your time looking up that kind of stuff? Ugh, okay. So it really is going to depend a lot on the water. So just like when we bury someone in the ground, we don't always have a good handle on what happens to them because so much depends on temperature.

[00:04:06] It depends on the soil conditions, right? A thousand other things we might not even be able to measure. So with water, at least in my experience, it's going to depend on what animals are in there. It's going to depend on the temperature. I had someone pass away in a river in the winter, fell through the ice, and it was very, very cold. And when they fished their body out, despite being maybe a little bit bloated, there was no major decomposition going on

[00:04:36] because the water was so cold that it halted a lot of it. So that could be one thing. You also might have a situation where, let's say someone dies in water, which I've had happen before, and there are fish, and the fish begin to nibble a little bit. So those might be issues as well. So no, I don't know. Too many variables to say exactly what happens. But a lot of times what you're going to have is water encroaching into the tissue.

[00:05:03] You're going to typically have a lot of sloughing, right? So like, let's say you take a long bath, Katie, and you get out and your toes are all pruney, right? Now imagine staying in that bath for days, days and days and days. So not, your fingertips aren't just going to be pruney. Almost all the way down to the bone, you're going to have sloughing, degloving, which is very unpleasant. Skin slip, sometimes we call it. But just, the skin is not meant to be underwater

[00:05:33] that long at the end of the day. So yeah, you're going to have decomposition, but there are just so many variables dictating how that might look. Gosh, don't watch any more death videos. Goodness sakes, you can watch this one. I don't know. I try not to satisfy my morbid curiosities too often. But hey, not going to judge you. I guess keep doing what you're doing. Good luck.

[00:06:02] Oh, this is kind of an effed up question here. Here's one from a long time fan. Kelsey. Can you be charged with a crime if you flush ashes down the toilet? I'm estranged from my mom. And when she dies, that is exactly what I'm going to do. Okay. I don't know about where you live. Maybe it depends on the country. But at least where I live, the state tracks a body from the time they pass away until the time cremation happens.

[00:06:30] So after that, the state has said, we do not have vested interest in what is done with those cremated remains. I've seen families scatter them. I've seen them end up on a shelf forgotten for years and years and years. I've seen them made into jewelry. I've seen them buried, et cetera, et cetera. Oftentimes, we will return the remains to the family. And what happens after that is really nobody's business. So whether they are plowed into the field with this year's new seeds

[00:06:59] or flushed down the toilet, I don't know if there'd be any legal ramifications, at least not where I live. I don't like doing those sorts of things. I once had a gentleman who said, throw me in the trash when I die. And then when he did, the crematory wouldn't do it. And I wouldn't do it. And so we had to find an alternative solution

[00:07:28] and return him to his family. And if they want to do it, that's on them. But yeah, I have a hard time because I just believe in the inestimable dignity of every person who walks this earth, even if they're awful, even if they're terrible, even if they've done reprehensible things, in death, when you were at your most vulnerable, we should try to treat people with respect, even if we think they don't deserve it.

[00:07:58] So I don't know. Do what you wish, Kelsey. I don't think the cops are going to come after you. And I don't even think the people at the water treatment facility will know what it is because at the end of the day, it is just charred bits of calcium washed down the drain. Thank you, everyone who sent in questions. I say it all the time, but it is a treat. It's fun. It's fun to be wanted.

[00:08:30] It's fun to, I guess, think I have some expertise, even though I'm just answering these questions on the fly. It just is what it is. I would answer it the same way if you were sitting here next to me asking me the same question. But thank you. If you are a new listener and you would like to send in a question, you may send it to deathandpodcast.com where I will do my best to get around answering it on a future show. Now, let us jump into the interview with Contessa.

[00:08:59] I hope you enjoy hearing us talk as much as I enjoyed talking with her. So let's just launch right in, okay? Our guest today is Contessa King. She is a licensed funeral director and licensed embalmer with the Weeks family of Washington State.

[00:09:28] She's been licensed for only four years, but as we were talking just before you dear folks arrived, she's committed the sin of usefulness and she's done a little too much too fast and she's too good. And now, at least in my opinion, as far as socials go, she is on top of the restorative art world. Contessa, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I hope that introduction wasn't too bold.

[00:09:58] No, I think it's just, I think it's hard to like, I think it's hard to swallow. I think it's hard to digest all of that. So, I mean, truly, like I follow you on Instagram. I am so impressed with things you're doing. We're going to talk about restorative art, but maybe my first question to you, because it's something that I wrestle with, is do you feel like you are a great big imposter? Oh, every day. Every single day. Sometimes I'm in the prep room doing ridiculous things and I'm always by myself,

[00:10:27] which I finally have an intern. I'm really excited. Oh, cool. I needed physical help so bad because, you know, reconstructions can take days, right? Really, really bad ones take days. And I sit there by myself in the prep room, my windowless room, and I go, I am a child doing post-mortem surgery. Who left me alone to do this? How old are you? May I ask? Yeah, I just turned 26.

[00:10:57] Nice. Oh, man. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. No, it is weird. I remember especially when I first got my license. I was 21. And I was meeting with a family and they had great grandkids who were my age. And I was like, I am a baby. There's actually nothing I can do for you. Yeah. And it took a long time before I kind of came into my own and realized like, oh, actually, I know a lot more about this than your average bear.

[00:11:26] But for a while there, I felt like a fool. And I still do feel like an imposter most days because I am just an undertaker from the middle of nowhere. Don't ever just say just. You know, you know the cornerstone of who you are. Like, don't, don't diminish that. It is what it is. I, but I'm, I'm very comfortable with it in some ways because I, I kind of like being an undertaker in the middle of nowhere. Like, I, I've only been spotted in the wild, Contessa, three times.

[00:11:55] So usually, like, like nobody ever recognizes me. Even at the height of my, my like YouTube video when that was just launching, I already know everybody in my county basically. So no, no one's like, oh, you're that guy from the funeral video. Like that's never happened. You just were always that guy. Yeah. I mean, I guess, I guess so. but yeah, so that, that was cool. But you're, but so tell, tell me this. How does,

[00:12:25] as you say, in your words, how does a child end up doing a post-mortem surgery, demi surgery or restorative art? Yeah. It's a good question. I didn't even, when I, when I first got into mortuary school, I wanted to get in for the green side because I came from like a environmental science, soil engineering background. And I literally was like, I don't understand why anybody would be involved. That seems, isn't that wild? That seems like such a waste. I could not comprehend it. Nobody in my family did that. Like,

[00:12:54] it just seemed, it seemed needless. Yeah. And then I started working at my funeral home, Columbia. That's 1907 traditional. They, we'd serve families from every single culture. It's all shipouts to other countries. And I was like, this is so important. This is so important. You can't even, you can't replace it. I, it's the only option for so many situations. And this is the thing, you know, I think it's easy for folks, um,

[00:13:22] kind of on the periphery of funeral service to look in and say like, Oh, what's the point? Save your money, blah, blah, blah. Or, um, or there are, there are so many very adamant, like folks with green teeth, you know, like they want green burial so bad and they will rip you apart to get it. Um, and then when you, when you dig deeper into it, you, you realize that like, there are no funeral directors I know anyway, who are like, absolutely no green services. Um, but instead are like, let me tell you what does work.

[00:13:51] And what does work is respecting the body. And that, that can look, that can look different. I mean, there are different ways of seeing that, but I think fundamentally just about every funeral director's goal is the same. Like they want to serve and they want to respect the body. And, um, and once you discover that, I think as, as an undertaker, um, not that I'm saying you tell people what to do, but you can encourage people who don't know what to do and be like, Hey, look,

[00:14:20] why don't you just come see your mom? Like, why don't you just come see her? And I, I've seen it time and time again where I've had families be like, I don't know. I don't know if we should do it. I'm like, Hey, look, if you don't like it, like, I'll just give it to you. I like, I'll like, I'll, I'll work for free. I don't really care. That's exactly what the family I work for lets us do. I've, I've even, even when you're like, we'll just have an ID viewing, no embalming, whatever, you know, minimal prep. And then I've never had a single person regret seeing somebody. Isn't that funny? And not once. And,

[00:14:50] and I'm not saying this because like, I make a lot of money embalming. Okay. I don't, I don't make it actually less money doing that and offering that for free every time. And I would do it every time. And the thing is the, the converse has been true many times where I've had someone say like, I wish, I wish I had maybe taken a chance to see my mom, to see my dad. I, I had a gal, I had a gal come up to me. This would be a couple of weeks ago anyway.

[00:15:19] And I had a young woman pass away. She embalmed beautifully. I like to think I finally made that leap where I'm, I'm no longer interested. I mean, I'm interested in the science, but only moderately, like really I'm just interested in the art. And she looked like a, she looked like a fricking angel. And I had a woman walk up to me afterward. She's like, you know, I know I came in and pre-planned with you to have cremation right away. She's like, but I might, I might be changing my plans. After, after seeing our, our gal here.

[00:15:49] And, um, like, I don't say that to toot my own horn, but I do say it that I, I think, I think these experiences are real and I think they are meaningful and I think they are impactful. And they, they hit you in a way that, you know, looking at a picture in a jar, it just doesn't, it doesn't do it. And, you know, and not everybody needs that. Okay. Like I'll, I'll admit maybe not everybody needs that, but I've seen so many people who might need that. And either they're afraid to ask, or they're afraid to go there,

[00:16:18] or they don't know what to expect. And that's where folks, I think like yourself really come into the fore because I mean, let's face it. You are surely a better restorative artist than I. No, no, no, no, there's no better in this industry. There's just, there's just good, good work. We just all need to, I'm convinced that we just all need to have the same skill level to some

[00:16:46] general capacity so that we make less mistakes with the public. I just want to get people's trust back because it's, we can do so much good work. We just all have to like, we just all have to work together to get this trust back. And it's driving me crazy. It's like, yeah, it's a little insane. There's been a lot in the news lately. Again, it seems we're getting, I, I, the, the, the tinfoil hat wearer in me is like they're,

[00:17:14] they're dusting off the bad undertaker stories in order to keep our attention away from actual problems. But, but they seem to be cropping up again. And there, there was a big rush of those in like the 2010s. And then it went away for a little bit. And now I'm starting to see them again. And I don't know if that's just because my feed is all about death. I completely agree with you. I almost wonder if it kind of ebbs and flows with the corresponding economic struggles. Like right now we're having a hard,

[00:17:43] we've been having a hard time, but I almost wonder if it's, I don't want to say like Mitford. Okay. Explain Mitferding for our, for our listeners here. This is lovely. Is it Jessica Mitford? Jessica. Yes. Yes. Okay. So she wrote this book and it's one I still have. The American way of death. It's called. It talks about the funeral industry and it's very transparent, but in fact, it just says the industry an incredible amount of harm. It doesn't,

[00:18:12] it shows what it, you know, it's like an inside look, but it really just trashes an industry and picked it apart in a way that wasn't accurate. And then also did not account for anything other than traditional, like white funerals. I will also say we didn't talk about any culture. Any, like the breadth of culture and religion in this country or the purpose or

[00:18:38] like smaller funeral directors and what they do for a smaller community. I just, it's just trashed everything. And it was huge. It was a big book. Yeah. So, so this book, the American way of death, it was very interesting. So when I was in school, you had, uh, there was, there was one professor who was like, this is the best. It tears apart our industry and it broke it down. And now we're going to build it back up. Um, and then I had other professors who were like, this book is shit. Throw it away. If you see. And, so, so I,

[00:19:08] we had very polar opinions. And so actually a couple of years ago I did, I sat down and read it. Um, and I, I had some interesting takeaways. One of which is that, you know, despite it kind of glamorizing the bad actors, which it does, um, it never talks about the why of anything. It only talks about the how it only talks about the nickels and dimes. And, uh, but, but what I did is I, I, I figured out what she priced out a funeral at in 1962.

[00:19:36] And then I just ran it through a very basic inflation calculator. And it turns out that our prices today pretty much track with that actually, that they haven't changed substantially, uh, versus the cost of living, uh, since 1962. So in some ways I was very grateful. I was like, Oh, she has this expose. And yet, um, we're still holding the line. Like we're still, you know, yes. Embalming is on the decline in a lot of places. Um,

[00:20:05] and yet we're still able to like do this thing that is a little bit, um, I don't know, against the social current. So fascinating. You did all, you did this. Yeah. Yeah. You nerd. That's amazing. That's, that's the coolest thing ever. Yeah. I'm a huge nerd. Uh, I come by it very honestly, but, um, but no, it's, it's, it's wild though. So we, you know, we, we spend all this time, I think as funeral directors in like a very defensive mode.

[00:20:33] And we have probably, probably always, you know, I, I talk with my friends, one of my very nerdy friends whom I love deeply. We talk about archetypes and I'm like, here's the thing. Like I, I think a funeral director like yourself, like myself, we kind of fit this, the shaman archetype, whatever that is that like, we do kind of a secretive thing off, you know, off in the wilderness, nobody sees what it is. And yet we come back and we've performed a sort of miracle. Right. We've, we've,

[00:21:03] we've represented someone, you know, we've, we've brought them back from the dead in this weirdish way. Right. Um, like we were kind of these shamans. And yet, like if you look in history across cultures, like the shamans, while they are revered, they're also feared. They're also like, there's always some, something weird, something a little bit dangerous, something a little bit, uh, uh, makes person skeptical about a shaman. And, um, and so I, I think we, maybe our profession has always been on the defensive, but I'm, I'm so pleased.

[00:21:33] I'm so pleased to see people like yourself actually. I mean, whether you acknowledge it or not, uh, taking something like a, taking something like an offensive in this saying like, no, this is good. Look what we can do. Look at the art and the thought and the heart that goes into this. Yeah. So can you, can you tell me, can you tell our listeners, can you tell us why you got into this? Oh, okay. So let me, I, first of all, the shaman thing, I think that that was a perfect way of describing this.

[00:22:03] I never really understood. We, we do, we kind of disappear and then we, we do a magical thing. Yeah. That's beautiful way of saying it. I hope that you write that down. Is it in your book? I don't know if it is, but, but maybe it'll be in the second one. If I ever get enough time and chutzpah to do it. Victor M. Sweeney, like two 31. One. Like, we're your shamans. Yes, we are shamans. Okay. I'm proud of it.

[00:22:28] I think what happened was I got into the industry and I immediately got really frustrated because I also worked at a really rural funeral home in the countryside and lived in the funeral home. And it was, I, you know, I embalmed. And then I, after that, I embalmed everybody for, it was, I was just always embalming by myself, but I was meeting with families. Like I had three arrangements a day and then embalm. And, you know, you run into these problems. I hate those days.

[00:22:58] Oh, I know. I would be like one arrangement, a funeral service, and then you're embalming all for the night. And then I would go to bed and then I'd be like, Oh, I need to tilt the table. And I'd like run back downstairs. I'd like tilt my table. And this was an old table. So the crank turn, like 1920 with their bra and feet on it. It was my favorite thing in the entire world. I kept it so nice and a little cloth feet and I miss it. And now I'm back in the city. So it's fine. But I, you know, you,

[00:23:25] you get into these positions where there's nobody to tell me what to do when I run into situations. And I'd be like, they told me to use wax. Okay. Okay. Wax sucks. Wax is the worst. I'm sorry. I apologize to all wax lovers. I hate it. You see me talk about it all the time. If anybody ever sees me speak, I will just pretty much sit there and I'll say, it's everything but wax. Here's all the things I use that are not wax. What do you, what do you use? It's not wax. Yeah.

[00:23:54] I haven't used wax in years. Yeah. What do you use? Yeah. So I use, so I either, if there's a large area of missing tissue, I, I make prosthetics. So I make prosthetics that are similar to like, and I started teaming up and learning from anaplastologists. So people who make medical prosthetics, because they're really the same thing, except we're kind of crossing into the special effects side. And that way, when somebody is able to see their kid or,

[00:24:24] and they have an emotional reaction or they, you know, grab their face or like go to kiss them or whatever, their face doesn't come off. That is a problem. Not to touch people, but they have emotional reaction. You can't stop a mom from seeing her dead kid. And like, you want to, first of all, I have anxiety. I need that to stay. And I can't stop a family from reacting. So I started to make prosthetics. So they're silicone. And so you can see them on my Instagram and things like that,

[00:24:53] but that way they don't move, you know, they're glued in. We can fit our prosthetics surgically. This comes with authorizations. The family knows everything that we're doing just to preface that. Yeah. but that, and then if this area is more minor in the level of damage, so like big sutures across, like, you know, running through the eye or anywhere on the face like that, I, it's like a filler putty that sets really,

[00:25:23] really hard. So that way, you know, like I'll do so many ship outs. The last person was a ship out to Mexico to go back home to his family. And. His restoration would not have made it back. Like a, all of the reconstructive side was like epoxy filled. So that's not moving structurally. And then surface wise with like such a large cut through the face, I, the wax would, you know, it could peel off from condensation from moving in the plane. Right.

[00:25:52] He had viewings before he has viewings back home. So like having that putty that solidifies within that space completely, and then you're able to cause myself over it and nothing moves. And then the frigid cosmetics that I use, I, they genuinely aren't, aren't changing. Man, I'm going to have to get some of that stuff. Cause I, I've had, I mean, I don't know more than I should in a small town of, like you say, the, uh, the scar that runs right through the face. Um, and yeah, I mean, you know,

[00:26:22] at least what I do is I use like wound filler, like the really firm stuff. And then I just get that hotter than hell. And then, and then hopefully, you know, when that dries, then it'll stay. But, um, yeah, it is, I'll tell you what, like lip wax has its place kind of, but not in big stuff. Cause it does move. I, I had a, I had a gal a little while ago anyway, and, um, long postmortem and forced, uh, long postmortem interval face down, you know,

[00:26:52] staining all that stuff. And, um, and yeah, it's hard to tell a family like, Hey, so just, just so you know, don't touch please. And then inevitably at the end of visitation, there's still like some people walked away with like makeup fingerprints and you can see the purple underneath. Yeah. And you come over in their forehead is going to do or kissing them. Yeah. Yeah. That's hard. So I guess that's the reason that I, that I got into this was just this need to,

[00:27:20] I just never understood why in, in the year that we are in. And this is no shame because I also understand how hard people work in this industry. I've been working 80 hour weeks, not as much lately, but trying to really pull back in different ways. But like, I've always worked in insane overtime. You know exactly what it's like. You get in situations you just have to work. And it's hard to explain to people why. You're like, because families are on the line.

[00:27:48] You can disappoint so many people or hurt them unintentionally. And it's so hard to deal with that. But like, you just have to get what you got to get done. Right. Yeah. And learning that executive function is a big deal too. Because I think like I, so I, last week I had a gentleman pass away Thursday. Arrangements, Friday afternoon, visitation, Sunday, funeral, Monday.

[00:28:14] So I have fewer than 48 hours to just slam everything out. And yeah, so it's like, well, I guess I'm just going up at night until I'm done. And you just go from, you know, I put my kids to bed. I go into work from 10 to three or whatever that looks like. And yeah, that is, that's a, that's, that's hard to explain to people that aren't on the inside. Yeah. Yeah. There was a day last week and I have some time off right now because I have people visiting, but I worked for 24 hours straight and I was like,

[00:28:43] I'm just not coming home. I seem to get everything done and I will see you guys in 24. Like I just keep working, but it's, it's tricky. So I said, I didn't understand why we've changed. We we've advanced chemicals. We've advanced cosmetics. We've advanced so many things, but why have we not moved away from wax? We can look at the special effects industry, the anaplastologists that are making these like beautiful prosthetics. And I was like,

[00:29:11] they can really crank out prosthetics. I don't, why can't we do something similar? And then also, especially pertaining to anaplastology, right? Like those people that make those prosthetics, they have to wait to get their patients, surgeries fit. And to go through all of these different things and like their wearability is very different. It's like the consistency of all of these different implants. Right. I'm like, we can with authorization,

[00:29:37] perform our own surgeries to fit our own prosthetics and then crank out a prosthetic similar level to like special effects. And it's hyper realistic. You know, we can, we can plug hairs in the same way that you punch hairs. We can do all these different things. And I was like, I just don't get why we haven't moved away from wax when, yeah, we're, it's just, it's, I feel like we've come a long way. Like, let's keep going. Like, let's keep trucking along. And then I started trying to reach out to like plastic surgeons.

[00:30:07] And so I was just at Johns Hopkins and like in their cadaver lab, trying to talk the plastic surgeons ear off and la la la la. And yeah, we can pull so many different techniques from these people. I was like, we can just, we can just go in there and steal what they're doing guys. And they're willing to help us. Cause we're not a competing industry. That's true. That's, that's fat. You know, I, I've never really put that together. I, I made, I, I did one prosthetic.

[00:30:36] I had a gentleman that was, uh, he was beaten to death and then his ear was cut off and I think kept as a trophy. And so I sculpted an ear out of wax. And it was one of those where the family had come in and seen him. This is when I was still an intern, by the way. And the family had come in and seen him and they had like the, the bandage, you know, big bandage over his head. And, you know, I was pretty ambitious then I was like, what the hell? Let's try it. Right. So we, we removed the bandage. We did a big, I did a big hair restoration on spots where they had to be a

[00:31:06] like shaved around every little laceration in a scalp. Um, and I was like, you know what, let's just try it. So I sculpted an ear and I'll be damned if we didn't have the casket open at the church, which is pretty cool. The casket wasn't open. Yeah. The family, only the family had seen him and they're like, nah, it's going to be closed for sure tomorrow. Oh, and you just pulled it off at a night. Yeah. All right. Yeah. We're going to try it. And yeah, then we had an open and that was like, I felt like that was a pretty big. Why didn't they let you do that earlier? I'm so.

[00:31:34] Cause I was young and dumb and they're like, well, you know, we're not going to open it tomorrow. Like give it a shot. Yeah. Did they let you do everything after that? Uh, I did a lot. I did a lot of weird stuff after that. It's probably like earned you your. Yeah. I, I, I wasn't at that place too much longer, but I did do a lot of embalmings and I, I do get, I don't know about you. Do you get really, do you get possessive about embalming? Like when someone comes in, that's like in kind of tough shape, you're like, you know, I just let me handle it. I know.

[00:32:04] You know what? I feel like I used to be like that a little bit more. I'm, I'm honestly so tired. Yeah. There we go. There we go. I finally got into this point. And I also feel really, really lucky in the way that I'm the lead embalmer from my funeral home. And there are certain things that like, I've really tried to get more people kind of taught up and make sure that we all have similar skills. But with, with, I'm driving to a different prep room now. So I, my days are ruined every day.

[00:32:35] But, uh, yeah, arson is rough. I have all these other talented people that, you know, like we take care of all of the active duty soldiers. So I work with these great people. I'm going to give them a little shout out, Chaston and Bridget. And they're fantastic. So like when I can't do something because I'm like traveling, I know that there's some people that can take good care of folks. Granted, do we all have like different strengths and weaknesses for sure. But Chaston says this thing all the time where he's like, he's like, we have to let it go.

[00:33:05] We can't embalm everybody. Yeah. Because we're like, we're kind of the three people that know the things that we know. And it's really hard to give up that control when you're like, Oh, but they don't know. They don't, they don't know. They haven't worked with us or they don't do things a certain way. And we're like, no, they, we can't embalm everybody. Yeah. It's not possible. God, I just kind of take a breath. Here's one for you.

[00:33:34] So when, when the, the state, the state health department comes and, uh, does a full audit every two years. And so our, our health, our health, the mortuary health inspector is going through our embalming forms. And she's like, just flipping through. Then I see her flip back and she's flipping through again. And she goes, are you guys keeping score? And I said, yeah, we have like, we have like a little tally sheet on the bottom, just so we know, like how many embalmings eat. Cause there's only two of us, uh,

[00:34:03] however many embalmings the other has. Um, and then you get bragging rights if you have more. Uh, so right now, right now it's 20 to nine. So I'm way up. Um, but I, I do get, and I, I try not to be as well. Cause I think I'm in the same boat where it's like, well, I can't do everything, but man, it's like every once in a while we'll get somebody come in. That's really jaundiced. And I'm like, I'm pretty good at fixing the jaundice problem. Well, and I, I just want to do it so that I don't have to worry about it. You know? Well, and I'm going to be honest with you.

[00:34:33] There is this thing where like, how this is so hard to explain. There is this thing where people are really possessive of other people, right? They're like, Oh yes. And I'm always saying, I'm like, guys, enough dead bodies to go around. I promise that we could all take really good care of our decedents and our families. But there is a point where people that are smart funeral directors are smart embalmers. We have to get to this point where we know where to, when to hand something off to somebody else. When it's like, I know that you're really good at this.

[00:35:02] Maybe I don't have this strength. Can I come learn from you? Can I come learn from you while you do this? Can I like, we kind of have to get over this pride thing because it's how we could also benefit from learning from each other. And that's where, oh, I'm like, I'm like, guys, there's so many times where we'll get these cases, but also we have to know when to ask for help from like, we have so many people available to help us in this industry and outside of the industry.

[00:35:32] So like when they're, when you get a jaundice case, like I'm going to be honest with you. I don't, I don't know your funeral home, but maybe you're the king of fixing jaundice individuals and it kind of should be passed off to you. Yeah. And maybe you're, maybe somebody else should maybe take a second and be like, can you please teach me how you fix these jaundice cases? They look amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, I don't know. It's super interesting. I, I don't know, especially in a small town where I'm at. So like we have this, we have a strange dynamic.

[00:36:03] So I, I know almost everybody that comes through the doors. Or if I don't know the decedent, I know their family or vice versa. Right. And so what ends up happening a lot is we'll have a situation where my boss, Mike will be like, well, I went to grade school with this family. Let me make arrangements. And then, and then I'll end up, you know, the week later or whatever it is, I'll be like, actually, I know these guys really well. Like, can I, you know, and having been here 12 years, you know, now I have a little bit of cred.

[00:36:33] Um, but it, but I, I think about that a lot because there will come a time where I'm going to be buying my funeral home and I have to find another person to come work for me. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I have to, I have to take a step back and realize that I can't make every arrangement, even though I love these people. And that's, it's a hard, it is a hard thing. It's a hard thing to do. Cause I, I, I do, I do think I tell people this too. I'm like, Hey, look, when I arrange your funeral, like, I don't want you making a bunch of calls. I'm going to do everything.

[00:37:02] I want to have my finger in every pie. Like, I want to know what's going on. I want to make sure it gets done. It's going to be done to my standard, which is like just Victor standard. And that's just is what it is. But like, if I'm going to do it, just let me do it. Uh, that's so good though. No, it's so nice to hear because I also was kind of right. I'm going to say raised, you know, but like who taught me, it was the same thing where it's like, we should be taking everything off of your plate. We should be making a hard situation, a not worse, but hopefully easier.

[00:37:32] Like we should take as much, you know, we're going to make every call. We're going to, you may, you might have to, we'll call you and you can make a deciding opinion or whatever, but like we, we should be taking all of that as higher professionals. I love that you're saying that. It's making me geek out a little bit. Well, that's good. Cause it, yeah. And, and does it, does it get to be a lot? Sure. Like, do I love doing all the veterans paperwork? Not really, but, but I'll do it. And like, guess what? I've read 10 bajillion DD two 14s.

[00:38:02] How many DD two 14s as your average family read? Zero. You know, we know where the numbers are. We can, we can fill this out. Yeah. I can fill out forms. It's not a big deal. Or I, I had a, I had a family come in last week and they're like, Victor, we want to, we want to put away some, some money for our funerals. And we have these insurance policies. And it turns out that they had been buying like whole life insurance policies for years. And they just had like a bajillion dollars. They were,

[00:38:31] they were paying like almost $2,000 a month in premium for these like just crooked policies that some shyster sold them, you know? Cause these were kind of like vulnerable, vulnerable adults. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, oh, well I see the problem and I've probably put something like 12 hours into it now. Um, just like getting these policies figured out, talking to the right people. How do we consolidate them? How,

[00:38:57] like some are total bull crap and we're trying to like cancel them so we can do something better. But it's like, yeah, sometimes people just walk in and I'm like, well, I've seen a thousand insurance policies. I guess I can help you. Yes. And, and it's going to cost you nothing but my time. You know, it just is what it is. You just, you just make that trade and you just hope, you just hope that it's the right thing. You want to help your community so bad. I like can't even explain into words. Cause like, you'll understand what exactly what I mean, but maybe for somebody listening in,

[00:39:27] like you have this urge really, I just want to help people so bad. Like I want, and then you have this pride where you're like, this is my community. Like we can not do wrong by our community, by these people. Like these are our people and our job is to protect these people. And also like, I think people forget that even as embalmers, half of our job is kind of like being the protectors of our deceased individuals. Right. Like I tell families, I'm like,

[00:39:56] I also live at this funeral home. Like I'm kind of like the bodyguard of this place. And like, I'm keeping everybody safe. This is like my, this is my, like my little herd and I'm the shepherd, but yeah. Yeah. But no, but there's, and, and the thing is now, then I look at the news with all these like terrible funeral home stories going on. And I'm like, how does this happen? Because at least on my watch, like nothing happens that does not pass my closest scrutiny. Yeah.

[00:40:26] I think it's really hard for us to understand. And that's what makes it also more frustrating. But I mean, and if, and let's face it, you know, the thing is like whatever scrutiny we might have from the outside, If there wasn't the trust built in, the breaking of that trust wouldn't seem so heinous. So for however many people are like weirded out by funeral directors, are scared of funeral directors, you know, scared of funerals.

[00:40:55] I once had someone tell my wife, they're like, how would you let him like touch you with those hands? He's done terrible things with them. And I'm like, I mean, it's true. But like, I don't know. I just wonder, you know, at the end of the day, like, I still think the reverence for the dead is there. We just don't always know how to tap into it or understand it. And our credibility follows that. A hundred percent.

[00:41:25] I also think people forget like, you know, when you said about his hands have done terrible things. I'm like, would anybody say that to a nurse, a surgeon? Like, we're really not doing anything. Yeah, no, we're not doing a single bad thing. I've been caring for people. Like, I'm like, I just can't.

[00:41:52] Sometimes I've talked to some people who would like they worked at a hospital, like a children's hospital. And we were talking about something like people will always say, what's the worst case you've ever seen? I mean, I will not tell you the worst case I've ever seen. But what I will tell you is like, well, I've seen like dead babies. That's kind of that's pretty bad. Like, honestly, I don't know here for like gore. I'm not going to tell you gore. But it puts it into perspective of like, yeah, that was a bad case. Right.

[00:42:20] And the people that worked at the children's hospital were like, yeah, but they're dead. And I was like, you understand it's the same patient. Like they are your patient. They're still the same baby, same kid, same adult leaving your hospital. This is the same person. I don't know what like flips in her mind to like think it's different. Yeah. And so I usually explain something like this.

[00:42:45] So I once had a group of ladies from one of the churches come into the funeral home, which was very fun. And one of the ladies was just going on. She's like, it's just a shell. The body's just a shell. None of this matters as I'm standing right here, by the way, presenting on this. And I was like, Karen, listen, how many experiences in your life have you had without your body? Like, just name one like dreams. Like, nope, you need a brain for that. Like, try again, try again, try again.

[00:43:14] And it's like, as it turns out, your body is really important. Actually, it's it's it's we use the word integral too often, but it is actually integral to being human. You must have a body. If you don't have one, you're not a human. And yeah. And then for some people, yeah. For like you say, the switch. Flips and all of a sudden you're not human anymore. And then what we do is weird and disgusting and meaningless.

[00:43:42] And yet everything to the contrary, from the work of our hands to the families we like guide and shepherd, as you say, everything about that actually tells us different, that the body is important. That's such an amazing, I'm like so really trying to hold on to like your exact words, because that's such an amazing way of responding to that. And I've never heard anybody say that. And for some reason, have never been able to put that into it. Like, like what, what experience did you not have your body?

[00:44:12] Like, that's perfect. Yeah, there's not one. Because I don't think people understand how many scenarios, like people say that to us all the time. How many times have you heard that in your life? People are just a shell. It's not them anymore. And I kind of just, you know, I've always told people like, it's still them. I've never been able to really give them something to think about that. Yeah, that's right. Take that, Karen. Very well said. Yeah, I don't.

[00:44:39] And the thing is, I don't know if you, you can't change people's minds overnight. You know, you can, you can speak about this till you're blue in the face. And you can give them experiences that make them feel differently after we provide services. But no, we can't change our minds. There's something powerful, I think, about the fact that like restorative art doesn't happen with a machine. I mean, you use machines, you use tools, instruments, right?

[00:45:08] But it's not something I can just plug, you know, I can't like type in an AI prompt and be like, fix this problem. Right? It can only be done by like, the ingenuity and like the heart and the hands of an actual person. That's the only possible way for that to happen. Yeah. Something that I've been like really trying to start diving into is the 3D sculpting aspect. And I have, I've not had enough time to really dive into this.

[00:45:35] But being able to, you know, use like 3D printers and start making 3D models and create these things. And when I try to explain this to people, why? Because I'm like, don't worry, we're not 3D printing our restorations. That's what they think of every time. Yeah. We still have to do the embalming, the surgery, all of those things. But this would just allow us to maybe speed up the prosthetic making process where once we have that sculpture or have like a scan, we could build it out or print like the mother shell.

[00:46:05] We'd still have to hand run the silicone, paint the silicone, punch the hairs, do this, put it on the person. Like it replaces nothing. In fact, it just might make us use less materials in the long term. Like that's, that's all I'm looking for is like something cost saving because all of this stuff, these like ads, they're all really expensive to me. Are they? I have so many of them. Yeah, they're really expensive.

[00:46:31] I'm just making molds and materials and melting clay and like, oh, let's see. There's like, this was like somebody's hand that I took for a cast to give to a family. Oh, cool. Yeah. So he had two thumbs. Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. So I was like, oh, they've got to have a copy of his hand. My great grandpa. I wish we'd done that with him. My great grandpa, the original Victor, he died when I was 20.

[00:46:59] And when he was a boy in about 1920 or so, he fell and he cut his pointer finger, his right pointer finger. He cut it. And then the tendon retracted and it pulled his finger back like this. So it like went back and then back again at the second joint. Okay. So the reason I'm probably around today is he couldn't fight in World War II because his only injury was on his trigger finger. And so when he died, my great uncle played a prank on everyone, or played a prank.

[00:47:29] It might have my grandma too. It sounds like my grandma. I'll say it's my grandma, my Mimi. They're like, well, you know, did you get grandpa's ring? She's like, yep. And I also got his finger. And she'd like, it was October. So she'd gone to the Halloween store and gotten a severed finger and put it in a box. And I actually did it to my uncle. So she terrified my uncle. He damn nearer had a heart attack. But that would have been cool to have like a cast of my grandpa's hand because he had a very distinctive hand. Yeah.

[00:47:58] It's like an amazing thing to have to memorialize somebody, right? Like people, I've had that before where people had an interesting hand or something. And they're like, oh yeah, if you could get us as a thumb. And we're like, no. But I was like, well. We could capture the thumb. Yeah. We could take a copy. Yes. That's amazing. Well, I'll tell you, I could talk to you for a very long time about this.

[00:48:26] Because now I'm thinking, how am I going to find a way to get to one of your seminars so I can learn how to do some of the stuff that I don't do already? Because I've only been trained in the old school. And maybe it's time to get trained in the new school. Well, you're always welcome to come. I actually don't have very much set up. The only thing I'm speaking at coming up is an anaplastology conference in Mexico. I'm really excited to see some really dear friends. People are coming from Chicago and Belgium. And my good friend Miguel in Mexico.

[00:48:55] So I'm looking forward to that. Outside of that, people are always welcome to contact me. I speak at associations or internationally. So I'll keep you updated, Victor. Because I also want to hear you speak. Oh, good. Well, I don't do much speaking. Unless it's on the podcast, I guess. I don't. Wife, four kids, small funeral home. You have four kids? I do. So I'm really bound by geography right now. I don't travel much. Oh, my gosh. That's awesome.

[00:49:25] I bet you're such a fun dad. I hope so. If there's something that comes up, I will let you know. I would love that. Oh, okay. For our listeners here, if you want to follow Contessa, where can people find you if they wish to? You can find me on Instagram. I have two accounts. One of them I was trying to be normal in 26, but it just doesn't work. So you can follow me. I use both of those. You can see me pop up with Frigid Fluid. I'm an embalming specialist with them.

[00:49:54] I work with the cosmetic side, the restorative side. So sometimes blogs will pop up or webinars or educational things, or I'll speak with them. And then you can also find me on Facebook and TikTok. But I'm really working on my social media. I'm a pretty decent embalmer. I'm not the best with social media. Who cares? Social media is nonsense. I have some friends that help me with mine.

[00:50:24] I'm not too keen on it. And quite frankly, I just always want to keep first things first. And like you said, I don't answer the question, what's the grossest thing you've ever seen? I might tell another undertaker the grossest thing I've ever seen, but I will never tell an average person on the street. Because at the end of the day, this whole social media experiment that I'm doing is really based on reality and not on the glorification of the macabre or the sensational.

[00:50:54] And I'm really grateful to you for that. I'm really grateful. It's very important that this job does... I don't want to say stay sacred because I need people to understand every family we talk to, if I'm doing literal surgery, they're signing off the relations and I'm telling them what I'm doing. Like the transparency is there for every family. Every time.

[00:51:17] So, but that's between a professional and a family, not a professional and the world publicly. So I'm really grateful to your work. Well, thank you, Contessa. I'm grateful for yours. Thank you for being here, truly. Thank you for having me. I said at the top of the show that I regret not letting the camera roll at the end. To have almost a blooper reel. Because we...

[00:51:47] Whoever... Whatever guest I have, it doesn't matter. We seem to always talk a little more irreverently once we get to know each other. That's the disadvantage of a podcast like this is I get to know people as we go and gain their trust as we go. Or if I've known them for a long time, we have to kind of pretend like we don't know each other that well when we start talking. Strange game to play. But inevitably, by the end, we walk away friends. And Contessa told me... She said, oh, like, I'm just...

[00:52:16] I'm not quite ready to die. I was telling her, I could die anytime. I'm totally ready. Take me now. She said, I'm not ready because I know the embalmer who would embalm me and I'm not ready for him to see me naked. And to that, I said, I don't care who sees me naked. I've seen a thousand dead people naked. Like, I am not afraid of being one. Like, prepare to be underwhelmed by my dead nakedness future embalmer.

[00:52:46] But no, our conversation was wonderful. I loved being able to tell her some full-on Victor thoughts, right? Things about undertakers being shaman archetypes. That was fun. And really, as I got to thinking about it, you know, the title is Death and Restoration. And we talked about the restoration of the deceased using techniques from other industries, which is fascinating.

[00:53:12] I could have just talked in depth about that for a long time and you'd have been bored to death on the other end hearing about it. But the other aspect of restoration that I think is very interesting that we touched on in a couple different ways is the restoration of this industry. In that we can restore. We can bring back the funeral world.

[00:53:37] We can bring back the, I don't want to say prestige, but at least the trustworthiness of the undertaker by pouring ourselves out. In service to this world that we inhabit, right? A nurse makes all nurses look great when she pours out herself into her patient. And I think the same can be said of funeral service.

[00:54:04] I think the same can be said of funeral directors, that we pour ourselves out. That we get up at 3 a.m. when we are called. That we answer the phone no matter who's on the other end. That we, like Contessa says, we work 24 straight hours to get the job done so then we can go have fun. And it's hard. It's hard to put funeral service first.

[00:54:32] We're going to talk about this more surely as the show goes on. I have ambitions of getting my wife as a guest and she will be the first to tell you. It's not all sunshine and roses. But it's something worth having. It's worth remembering the dead. It's worth loving the physical aspect of a person. Reverencing their bodies. Whether in life or in death. It's worth doing.

[00:55:02] And to bring back funeral service. To help restore that trust that we have in our undertakers. It just takes one person. It takes me doing a really good job where I live. It takes Contessa doing a really good job where she lives. It takes you, dear listener, if you're an undertaker. It takes you doing a very good job where you live. Taking a certain pride in it. I say it on the show.

[00:55:32] I say it in real life all the time. I talk about my families. Not my nuclear family. My families. My family needs this. On a Thursday. Or whatever it is. And they're my family for a time. I want to treat them as if they are. I want them to actually be something akin to family. Something akin. I want them to be something akin. I want them to be my family. I want to serve them.

[00:56:03] I want to love them. And I want to love their dead loved one in their way too. How lucky I am that I get to do that on a regular basis. How lucky I am that I'm not just some talking head on the internet. Talking about death. Right? Contessa said she won't share about gore. I won't share about gore either. I'll tell you the truth. I'll tell you the truth in love.

[00:56:27] I'll try to tell it to you in a way that is palatable and respectful to both you as a person and the deceased. As a soul that once inhabited a body. But how lucky I am. I get to do the real thing. Then I get to do this too on the side. If you are interested in the thoughts that kind of swirl in this interview in particular it seems. I really would encourage you if you haven't had a chance. Go find a copy of my book.

[00:56:57] It comes out in paperback this October. October 4th? 2026? Anywhere books are sold. How cool is it to say that? I read the audio book. If you're not a book reader. I read the audio book myself. I sat in this very seat. In this very studio. For 11 hours. And recorded the audio book. But thank you for being here dear listener. I appreciate you coming with me on this journey of discovery. About how we treat our dead.

[00:57:27] And how we ought to love our living. Until next time. I'm Victor M. Sweeney and this has been another episode of Death And.