Death And Mothering (with Amanda King)

[00:00:00] You need to have faith in children. Like, people ask me, what age should you start talking about death? As a baby. As a baby. Just make it normal.

[00:00:21] Death and Mothering. Welcome everyone to Death and the show where we obviously we talk about death, but it seems we spend most of our time talking about life. And as you all know, everyone here came from a mother. Those that give us the gift of life. Today, my guest Amanda King, she's an undertaker. She's a graphic artist.

[00:00:46] And honestly, I think a very strong advocate for women in the industry. Really, our discussion centers around employment.

[00:00:58] How do we help lady undertakers navigate some of the challenges in the industry with the way it's practiced now and look ahead to maybe things we could change down the road to make it more accessible for them to follow both the calling of funeral director and the calling of motherhood. And those things should not be mutually exclusive.

[00:01:23] If you are new to the show, I invite you to go back and listen to some earlier episodes, either solo episodes where I monologue about various topics or even talk to other guests. It's been interesting to watch the show grow as we approach, what, four dozen episodes, something like that. Maybe just 40. I don't know. Either way. It seems like a lot.

[00:01:48] But I'm glad for those of you that have been along from the beginning that you've been here to watch us get to this point today. In the episode, we talk about employment. We talk about corporate funeral homes versus small town funeral homes like my own. We spend a fair bit of time talking about nipples and breastfeeding.

[00:02:13] And these are honestly important topics, things we should not shy away from because they're part of that great gift of life. Not only do we have this wonderful interior world that we as undertakers want to share with others, but we also have bodies, right? Bodies that fall apart, that ache, that hurt. And if you are a mother, feed your children.

[00:02:40] It's part of the great, beautiful, mixed-up bag that is life. Every episode, we answer some questions from the mixed-up bag that we get from people sending in questions. If you have a question, by the way, you can send it to deathandpodcast at gmail.com. Or you can go to deathand.com and you can leave a voice memo. Those are always fun to get. We don't get a ton of them, but when we do, I always try to answer them right away.

[00:03:08] For our questions today, let's see what we've got. Here's a question from IamTimFoley. Starting off strong. What about retinal donation? A dear friend of mine donated many of his organs after death, including the retinas. I do wonder what was left behind in the eye sockets after donation. All right, Tim. The answer is not much.

[00:03:36] The eyeball is left in. There are usually some incisions made to remove the pieces and parts they like. Sometimes they're deflated. Sometimes they are totally enucleated. And so if that's the case, typically, you know, they don't just give me like a falsie to put in there. What I usually do is I take two eye caps, the rounded bird contact lens-like things. And I take two of them and then I put a little ball of cotton in between and I just make a sort of ersatz eyeball to put in the socket.

[00:04:07] And then oftentimes I'll have to kind of add more cotton as I go or take a little out. Because there is usually a little bit of distention around those eyelids when enucleation happens. So you just have to kind of watch it as you go to make sure you don't get real big bug eyes or, on the opposite side of things, eyes that are sunken in. So eye donations are actually some of the easiest ones to deal with. Organs, obviously, more invasive. Bones, way more invasive. Skin, even more invasive than that.

[00:04:36] So if someone only donated their eyes, it would be almost a non-issue for me as the embalmer. Thanks for the question, Tim. Here's a question from Cameron. Hello, Victor. I'm a 9-11 dispatcher in Seattle and I'm a big fan. Thanks. I'm so curious what would happen to my veneers if I'm cremated. Will they survive the cremation and then go into the cremulator with the rest of my bones? Do they melt?

[00:05:05] Will you just scoop them up and throw them in the trash? I'm so curious. Thank you. Okay, well, I don't know exactly what veneers are made of. I assume porcelain or something like that. Actually, I'm going to tell you something right now. This tooth right here is a veneer. I cracked the original. And then when they made the new one, they put all sorts of discolorations on it so it looked like my own normal discolored imperfect teeth. So veneers, if they're made out of porcelain, no, they will not cremate. They will be visible with the rest of your bones.

[00:05:35] And like with your regular natural teeth, okay? They just get ground up with all the rest of it. So your pulverized bone dust will also include a tiny fractional pulverized piece of porcelain that were your chompers. So cool. Well, Cameron, thanks for the question. That was kind of interesting to think about. All right, everyone. Thanks for the wonderful questions. It's always good.

[00:06:03] I got to tell you, I don't prepare. I never read the questions more than two and a half seconds in advance when I open the message with what I'm going to read today. So I'm answering these off the cuff. My answers may not be perfect, but hey, I appreciate your trust in me when you send them along.

[00:06:24] If you would like to have a question answered off the cuff by yours truly, you can send it to deathandpodcast.com and, you know, we'll get to it when we get to it. So before our interview today, we do a little introduction and I realized I left some things out. Our guest today, Amanda King, she is a licensed funeral director of 10 years. She's an embalmer.

[00:06:54] She's a mother to two daughters. She works with Frigid Chemical Company. And then she has this, like, lovely little sidekick where she has cool little cute funeral graphics that she makes and sells on Etsy. Really do check her out there.

[00:07:12] But, you know, it's nice to have somebody on the other end of the line that we can talk to that has a similar lifestyle to mine, but then a different worldview. Being souls with bodies. Our bodies really do dictate so much of what goes on between our ears, you know, even on a spiritual level.

[00:07:38] That, like, a man's mind and soul is going to be different from a woman's mind and soul. And yet we share this profession and we share an interest in how we handle death with our own kids. And yet we might go about it slightly different ways. And this plays out, right? Having bodies. We're going to talk about the challenges of being a woman in funeral service. And that's not something I've ever experienced, okay?

[00:08:07] I can't. I can only be who I am. But I really hope today in the interview you get to enjoy just getting a glimpse into who Amanda is. And if you want to reach out to her, find her on socials. She's really cool. She's really, really cool. And I regret after our conversation we had some, like, almost blooper reels where we're just talking about the realities of life. And I wish we'd have left the camera rolling. But the conversation is there in essence today.

[00:08:37] So without further ado, sit back, enjoy our discussion with Amanda King, my new friend. Amanda is an undertaker licensed for the last 10 years at BC Bailey Funeral Home in Connecticut.

[00:09:07] And where I crossed paths with you, at least online, was actually initially through your Etsy store, Amec Graphics. Yeah. So I've known about you for years but had no idea the person behind all the lovely little punchy graphics that you make. Yeah. No one connects the two. When I present at conventions or associations, I don't mention that at all. That's one thing I kind of omit.

[00:09:35] And then afterwards, there's, like, usually a gaggle of people that kind of know who I was and then put it together and then come up in, like, Fangirl. And then I just give out stickers. See, that's nice. See, I really struggle because my only social credit I have is my book. And I'm to the point where I have to buy my own book if I want to give it to somebody. And that's, one, it's a little degrading.

[00:10:02] But, two, hard to show up and be like, I have 50 books with me and hand them out. Stickers would be way – I should get stickers made with my little face on them. It's cost effective. Yeah. So, okay, because – and it is funny because I find that I have the same kind of deal where you must also take your primary work as your primary work. I don't have a primary work. I don't – Well, just so, like, funeral service has to come first for me. Like, writing a book, whatever.

[00:10:31] Having a podcast, that's on the side. Like, if someone that I run into listens to it or knows that I do it, cool. But, like, I don't bring it up when I'm on a house call or in front of other people. I just mind my own business and do funeral service. I think first job for me, though, is mom. Okay. And then funeral service. Okay. And I was hoping we'd actually get to this at some point.

[00:10:54] But really, you know, when I was just dancing around with ideas of what we could talk about today, graphic design, that'll probably come up. Actually, I really do want to talk about motherhood. Because this is something that I think – it's hard for me to give advice on, okay? I'm not a mother, all right? My wife is. She stays home with our four kids.

[00:11:18] And when students reach out to me, the vast majority of whom are women, by the way, like, I'll tell them, like, the work-life balance is very challenging. I have many friends who are funeral directors and women. And, like, having to play that game surely is harder for you than it is for me. I can run off into the night and my wife is going to stay home with our kids because that's what she does full-time.

[00:11:41] Tell me about how one balances that as someone on the inside rather than me just on the outside looking in saying it's really hard. I think I would want to preface that by saying that you don't balance it and you don't strive to balance it because you're just going to set yourself up for failure. I will push back on that. It's funny. Go. Yeah, I just got interviewed by a magazine and they wanted to talk about how I balance it all because I give off that persona.

[00:12:10] And I immediately said I do not balance it at all. I'm in weekly therapy. You don't strive for balance because you set yourself up for failure, especially if you're coming new into the industry. I mean, I think if you look at – I mean, more women are coming into the field. However, more women are also within that percentage leaving the field within five years. And if you actually look at the ages, it lines up perfectly with their starting a family.

[00:12:38] Well, and I've found that with my friends that I went to school with. Weirdly enough, the ones that are actually still in it are the ones that have families and maybe are working part-time or the ones that have not had families at all. There's not really a whole lot in the middle. No. Unless you come upon a position where, yeah, it's part-time or you have more flexibility or you have a mortuary daycare attached. I don't know.

[00:13:08] All the – SCI, listen to me, please. There's something to be said about our field within the next 10 years. We're going to have to make a change or we're not going to have enough people working it because if it is women coming in and they're wanting to start families, they need to be home on maternity leave. They need to be either taking care of the kids or you've got not only the childbirth, you've got breastfeeding afterwards.

[00:13:35] I have so many women in the field reach out to me, one, about the safeties of breastfeeding and embalming, which I give them all the deets on that. But two – I want to hear about those. How to talk to their boss about it because it's awkward because their bosses think, oh, well, you're done having kids. That's it. You're fine. And they're like, wait, no. Every three hours I need to pump. Yeah. And I might be doing that for a long time. At least a year maybe.

[00:14:02] If you're able to – I mean I've had one girl reach out to me. She was put on a funeral five hours away driving the hearse and she's like, I have to pump. What am I supposed to do? And I was like, talk to your boss and she did and he wouldn't let up. So I said, you tell the family. Unfortunately, you're going to have to pull over for half an hour in the procession. Did they care? And that's what she did. No, the family understood. See, that's the thing.

[00:14:27] And this is the thing I think – I don't know for sure. But I would say that families generally give us much more grace than employers do. And I'm not actually leveling that at my employer at all. But the thing is when it comes down to it and you tell the family, like, I can't have a funeral that day because I – whatever. My wife has a doctor's appointment. I have to stay home with my kids. You tell them that and they're like, oh, okay. Okay.

[00:14:55] But you get pressure on the other – on the back end being like, well, why didn't you just say yes? I just – because I'm a human too. I think it's going to be the women that push back on that it's a lifestyle thing because we can't survive with it being a lifestyle thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's – and I struggle with it as well because, I mean, it is – at least where I'm at, it's just myself and my boss, just the two of us. We don't have a secretary.

[00:15:24] We don't have someone that mows the lawn. We have a couple old dudes that help with funerals. But I work every visitation. You know, I'm on call every other day of the year. I do all the pre-need. You know, we just cut the whole business down the middle and we just go in our own lanes. And so at least in a small town, it does become a lifestyle. You can never really turn it off.

[00:15:47] You know, I can be whatever messing around in the yard and the phone goes off or I can be planting flowers like I was this spring and somebody walked by and said, hey, can we get a box of thank you cards? Like I don't have them at home, but I can get them for you. So it does become a bit of a lifestyle. And I think it's good in a lot of ways.

[00:16:10] I think it's really nice that if a person embraces it, you know, you can not that you won't not that everything's a job, but it becomes more than a job. And I think people see that that like, oh, this is this is the person you call when something goes wrong. You call this guy in my town. Right. They're like, oh, when something bad happens. I just had a family. I buried this young guy who's my age. I buried his baby a couple of years ago.

[00:16:38] And then I buried his grandma last year. And then they found mom dead in her apartment. And so he and his brother. They called my cell phone. Yeah, they know it. They know it. They have it saved. And and I like I wasn't on call then. And yet I went. But the fact is, like, there's something to be said about, like, these people know that when the bad thing happens, I can help you.

[00:17:08] And and and and yeah, and you and it's a trade off. You know, I I remember as two years ago, I think I went on a death call on Easter as I was pulling the ham out of the oven. You know, pulled the ham out and was like, all right, now I got to get my dress clothes on and go. Yeah. And nobody likes that. And there are things that you miss and your spouse is forever a little bit frustrated that they have to take the backseat to your job. What what solutions do you have, especially for women?

[00:17:37] Because, I mean, let's be real, the burden of the family, really, no matter your setup, is going to fall primarily on the woman. So what what are your solutions for funeral directors going in? What are your solutions for employers to make it a little easier on, let's say, a new mother? I don't know if I have solutions, to be honest. Suggestions.

[00:18:05] And I will speak more to the corporate entities kind of taking over funeral world. Listen up, listen up, corporate entities. One, I hate you. But now listen to Amanda. I I feel like you can't hate them because they do actually give some women a good life work balance. They do create boundaries, which I think is important. And there's something to be said about that.

[00:18:33] I do think we need to look at other industries that have already started to solve this problem, such as either giving stipends for daycare or incorporating that somehow into the compensation package. Because that's another thing I hear is, oh, I can't work. I can't afford the daycare. I'm just working for the daycare. Might as well just stay home. That's the dang truth. My wife looked at getting a job in town here last year and like 90 percent went to daycare. Yeah. Forget that.

[00:19:04] And the other thing would just be we need to talk more about post pregnancy care and just the reality of that rather than sweeping you under the rug. Like the like the breastfeeding or breast pumping, which is awkward for women to talk about to like a 70 year old man who's the owner. Like he is not going to understand or realize that unless he's got maybe a daughter that's going through it at the same time. Yeah. Or granddaughter. Or granddaughter. Yeah. Or great granddaughter.

[00:19:32] However old he might be owning the business. I think we are scared to talk about things and that's going to come to a head rather than rug sweeping. Or else we're just going to see the exodus of women as they're coming in and not being able to come back. And there is something to be said about being a vocation because a lot of these women that reach out to me, they're like, I need to take a step back because financially it doesn't make sense.

[00:19:58] They're heartbroken because their hearts in the job and we're missing that. We thinking, oh, it's just a work. They're just another number. They're not. And it's strange to me, I guess. I don't know. I feel like maybe the people when I get to ownership age will be more open to these things because I think it strikes me as funny that a mortician who's seen thousands and thousands of.

[00:20:28] Naked little old ladies. With like the very obvious signs of breastfeeding seven children on them. Oh, they have the C-section scar from like way back long ago. Yeah. Would feel sheepish about talking about nipples. It just it doesn't it doesn't strike. It strikes me as peculiar. I was getting my haircut once in town. So I don't know if you find this as well. I think being the undertaker, people just just offload to you.

[00:20:57] So today today, actually this morning before I got here, I put in a cemetery marker and there was a gal that I buried some time ago and her daughter is visiting the grave. So I went over to talk to her and she's like, yeah, I we're having our third baby. Just found out I was pregnant yesterday. And I'm like, holy moly. You're not telling other people, but like you'll tell.

[00:21:17] The undertaker, I don't know why this is, at least in my town, but I was getting my haircut a couple of years ago and I'm talking with this new haircut gal, you know, she's just doing her thing. And we're getting to know each other. And all of a sudden she just starts telling me about her breastfeeding journey. And next thing I know, like I'm sweeping the hair off of my off of my little, you know, smock talking about nipple sensitivity and breastfeeding. And I don't I don't know if that's just me.

[00:21:45] I don't know if it's undertakers like people just realize we're a reasonable ear and we've seen some stuff and we know about humanity. It's judgmental, I guess. But but then I'm like, why? Why is it hard for employers and employees to talk about these things? Because it seems I mean, I don't know. Childbirth is like. Clearly connected to death. Being born is clearly connected to what we're doing and saying goodbye. We spend so much of our time in the industry talking about the importance of the body.

[00:22:15] Why are we sheepish when it comes to talking about the body with people that work with us and for us? I have to say two things. Second thing will be about nipples. Just first thing I went and presented in Hong Kong two years ago now. And when I went, Frigid was set up a booth there as well. I went to represent NFDA. It was amazing. But I had just had my second baby at that point.

[00:22:42] And Nelson Sanchez, who works for Frigid, I think a lot of people know who Nelson is. Frigid Chemical Company. Yeah. Embalming fluids. He's got several children and he's very sympathetic to his wife and is always just, you know, glowing radiant about like her and how she keeps together the family and everything that she does. So he can do what he wants to do for work and stuff.

[00:23:06] Anyways, when we were there in Hong Kong, I have to say because I was pumping and I had to bring a hand pump rather than the electrical one. Oh, sure. Yeah. Because of the battery. Yes. So I couldn't bring that. So I had to use a hand pump. And he was so kind. Every single place we were or had meetings or had to go, he found a bathroom for me to go in to hand pump. Like just being conscious of it. Like just it meant so much to me that for someone to be conscious of that, who is technically my employer.

[00:23:35] And the hand pump takes forever too. Yes. Yes. But if not, like the other side is it's extremely painful if you don't do it. And that's the other thing we don't talk about for women. People think like, oh, if you just don't do it, whatever. You lose your mouth supply. You'll get crippling mastitis. Don't worry. It's so painful. Yeah. In one of my presentations where I talk about the biology behind why we need to do certain cosmetic things to decedents, I do like to share fun facts every once in a while.

[00:24:04] And if the crowd isn't fully asleep, if they're like kind of fun, I'll bring out the nipple fact. Okay. Go. Yes. Buckle up, listeners. If you are trying to match a decedent's natural lip color, if you're trying to figure out what that lip color is, the type of melanin in our lips is called pheomelanin. And it's the same melanin in our nipples. So it's technically the same color or it should be.

[00:24:31] However, as you get more melanated bodies, there is more color variegation in the lips. But yeah. And like breastfeeding in pregnancy obviously would change that as well. Interesting. Interesting. But I like to say that fact and then everyone gets very awkward in the crowd because they said nipples on a mic. Okay. Here's another nipple thought for you. So back when I was doing my internship, sometimes you get women with rather large breasts.

[00:25:01] And if you're embalming and you just let gravity do their thing, the chest is flat and they hang down under the elbows. And then like nothing sits right. The hands don't sit right. So, yeah. You don't want that? So, so, so. The first place I worked, they just sewed the nipples together to tie the breasts up. What is – I don't do that. But what is your preferred method of breast elevation and embalming? Plastic bras on Amazon.

[00:25:31] Really? I've never thought about that. That's brilliant. How many sizes do you have? I – not many because most kind of do the trick. Sure. But you can – they're hygienic. You can wash them because they're plastic. Oh, yes. So, think of it that way. And actually, fun fact. Another fun fact. Plastic bras were actually developed for women, I believe, during World War II when we – they worked in the factories.

[00:25:58] Welding and stuff because it was meant to protect their breasts so they didn't catch fire. Yeah. Although, I feel like plastic would just melt and be as painful. That would be worse. Yeah. Well, it was invented by a man, surely. Didn't think that one through. Actually, so rubber gloves were invented by a man for his wife to protect her hands. So, that's an act of love. Yeah. That's really cute. Cute.

[00:26:25] So, no, I – so, at least for myself, for breast elevation, I usually just put, like, a tiny little, like, corset stitch kind of in the cleavage. But I don't sew nipples. But if I can put, like, three stitches, that's enough to hold them up. And then, like, if the family brings a bra, that'll do the trick. But that's what I do. I can't – I don't have it in me to sew nipples together. I can't do it. Please don't. No, go on Amazon.

[00:26:54] They're, like, eight bucks. Really? Invest in a couple. Yeah, they're cheap. I like that. Mm-hmm. Look at that. I learned something new today. Dolly Parton would be proud of you. Yes, she would. Here's to Dolly Parton. I – no, so tell me – okay. So, as far as motherhood goes then, so, like, you're kind of aimed at more corporate reform.

[00:27:17] Because I do find that in my tiny little town with two guys, like, trying to figure out how to, like, fundamentally shift the culture to accommodate, let's say, a nursing mother would be really challenging. Because then it would just dump everything on the other person. Like, no matter – with just two people. It's – like, right now, even, like, if I get sick, my boss is just by himself for a week.

[00:27:44] Like, and so that's been, like, a real challenge for us to try to, like, just in our minds play around with this idea of, like, how would we even begin to accommodate that short of hiring a third person? But then, like, we all have to take a pay cut. Yeah. That it's like, well, then you're really behind. So, I don't – I don't know what the answer is everywhere. But I will say that when I do talk with young lady funeral directors, especially ones that maybe are already mothers, I'm like, go work at a big place.

[00:28:14] At a big place, they can figure out, you know, how to accommodate you, how to help you, like, scratch the itch of funeral service, do the thing that you love and do the thing you want to do, while also having enough people to, like, fill in the gaps. Well, the other end of it, too, is single moms can't be on call or their custody schedule is not, like, it's not regimented. It's haywire, essentially.

[00:28:41] So, they can't make a reliable on-call schedule. So, you also have that. I have had women come up to me after presentations, like, privately asking if they can talk in tears, being like, I'm going through a divorce. I've got a three-year-old. How do I do on call? And the essential answer is, if you don't work somewhere big, you can't. And so, if you take yourself off the on-call schedule, what is the pay cut? Or what things can you do instead?

[00:29:09] What are you able to do instead? Are you able to offer, like, two full weekends a month where definitely the child's going to be at, you know, maybe the other parent or grandparents that can watch them? Does that equal financially for your owner or your boss?

[00:29:27] And I speak a lot about corporate because at least what I'm seeing is a lot of these smaller funeral homes eventually are selling to corporate because either their kids or grandkids don't want them because they see the workload. Or they've got no one to purchase it. So, what are you supposed to do? They sell to corporate. I mean, you can't fault them for that. There was a corporate – there still is, actually, up in my area. There's a smaller corporation. They're too big for me.

[00:29:56] But they're smaller. They have four people. That's too many. No, I think they have about 50 funeral homes. Oh. But at any rate, they called my boss's dad, Chuck, who owned the place for ages. And they called him back in the 80s and they said who they were. And this is like funeral home lore. He picks up the phone. They say, hey, this is so-and-so from X Corporation. And he goes, go to hell and hangs up. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah.

[00:30:24] I've more or less done the same thing with that same corporation in a nicer way over the years when they've tried to poach me. But I don't know. It is tough. A person has to be able to do what they love. And sometimes you have to compromise. And sometimes you're lucky enough where maybe you don't compromise, but you also have to embrace poverty a little more, which is what I have found.

[00:30:48] Because that's – you know as well as I do, for all the talk of how expensive funerals are, most funeral directors are not paid a ton relative to the just sheer amount of work and mental load and just gruesome things we have to see. We don't get paid probably adequately for that. But also we're fools and we love it. So that just is what it is.

[00:31:17] That's the meaning of a vocation. Yeah, that's right. Do you have any thoughts on funeral director's salary, Amanda? I don't know. It's hard. We're definitely not paid enough for what we do. But I feel like there also are many professions in the U.S. that are not paid enough for what they do compared to people that are overpaid for what they do. So I don't think it's just us.

[00:31:42] And I think sometimes we have horse blinders on being like, well, we deserve more. We deserve more. But also like my kids' teachers deserve so much more too. Yeah, absolutely. You couldn't pay me to do that job. I used to be a teacher. And I could not afford to do it even without kids. Like, that's how bad it is. I know teachers, friends of mine that are only teachers because of their husband's salary.

[00:32:13] And it's essentially their stay-at-home mom job is out being a teacher. Like, because that's the pay, what it equates. So I don't know for us. I do wish that we looked more to other countries as well with what salaries are with cost of living for the funeral profession as well as just other ideas in general just become more modern. Are undertakers in other countries compensated differently than American ones? I would say their lifestyles are different too.

[00:32:42] Tell me. There's more trade, I'll say that for sure, where you're making your own hours and taking on where you're working for several funeral homes doing the work of whatever. But also, they don't have that strict nine to five, don't you dare eat during your lunch half hour break. Like, you know, they're more lax. They're more meeting with their community. They're more part of their community and out there.

[00:33:13] I would also say the ideas are just much more open too. Whereas like, I joked before with other people that I wish we had a student exchange program with like the mortuary schools here in the U.S. with like Europe. And seeing what is possible and what could be done. Even if it's like for like a month. You could learn a lot in a month. Oh, God. Yeah. But even just the belief of like, it doesn't have to be this way in this regimented. If it's not like this, then it's wrong. Or like, how could you even do that?

[00:33:42] Like having like a home funeral for a baby or just bringing them home after being at the funeral home so they can be in the nursery. People are like, how can you? Is that legal? And I'm like, that's shouldn't. Like, yes, it's legal. But also like, it's totally easy to be done. It's not something to stress about. It's not something that's weird just because we don't talk about it in mortuary school or it's not on the exam. I'm like. Well, I've done a thousand things that they never talked about in mortuary school.

[00:34:14] And two, what I've found, at least, you know, I look, I hear back. So in my little place, I've got my boss. I've got his dad who owned it before him and his dad's uncle who owned it before him. And so in short order, I'm hoping soon to buy in. I'll be the first non-family member, you know, since 19. Honorary Bentley. Yeah. Well, getting close. We'll see. But, you know, first non-family member since 1937. Okay. Something like that.

[00:34:43] But the thing about it is when they talk about Rudy who owned it before, he was like nine to five, can't leave the building, blah, blah, blah. You know, you can only be across town if that, you know. It wouldn't. Never have a drink when you're on call. And then his nephew, Chuck, who's now 90. He's the oldest licensed mortician in Minnesota. He's awesome. But he was like a little bit looser, you know, moved out of the funeral home, you know, stretched it a little bit.

[00:35:12] Mike, even more so. And then I find myself, I'm like, I don't know if I want to have, you know, when we're busy, we're busy. When we're here, we're here. I kind of want to have, like, if you're on call for the weekend, you should just take Monday off. Like, and if we need you, hey, we're going to need you. But if we don't need you, don't be here. And so I really do think that the kind of culture of if you're busy, you're busy. If you're not, you're not. Like, has gotten a little better over time where I'm at.

[00:35:42] But I really want to take it one step further and just, you know, we spend so much time in the industry, like, worry that the phone is going to ring. Or, like, the other week, my boss's son called the office. He's like, hey, there's a sheriff's, you know, car patrolling through our cul-de-sac slowly. And I think it might be a, you know, a death call because we had a death call in the cul-de-sac a couple weeks ago. And I'm like, why even call? Who cares? Like, it's either going to happen or it's not. And, like, yeah, okay.

[00:36:11] So I know everybody that lives in that cul-de-sac. And I'm going to be sad when one of them dies. But, like, in the meantime, I don't need to get myself worked up that something may or may not happen because it surely will. It will surely happen. But as to when, like, how would I just tune out? You know? I'll answer the phone from home if I have to. But, like, it doesn't pay to sit there at the office and, like, wait for the phone to ring. Because I'm going to be working. From, like, 8 to 3 a.m. some night.

[00:36:41] And I'm going to make up those hours real quick. Mm-hmm. You know? Yep. But it's, no, it's, I mean, I, all credit due my wife. I wrote a whole chapter in my book about her. Because there are, I mean, plenty of people like myself where their spouse makes it possible. Like, it would be literally impossible for me to have the schedule I have now if my, if Paige wasn't there. Like, backstopping me.

[00:37:10] Like, being home. Whatever. You know? Just coordinating our lives and being like, Victor, where the hell are you going to be today? But, like, if I didn't have that, it would be impossible. Even for the single moms out there, they need some sort of community support or some sort of outside support.

[00:37:36] While it does take a village to raise a kid, I also like to say it takes a funeral home to raise a kid, too. Yeah. Because inevitably they'll come in as well, or you'll need to. But I remember around COVID time, pre and post-COVID, when I had my first one and she was small, I would strap her to my back. As I'm running around getting, getting caskets set up, doing cosmetics.

[00:38:02] I have pictures of, people have taken pictures of me over the casket and she's just strapped to my back with, like, her little binky in her mouth. Like, this is fine. No, and that's, and that's actually, that's a really good point. So I, I bring my kids into work all the time. Um, if my wife needs a break and I am busy, like, guess where all four kids end up? They end up at the funeral home. And, uh, like, they'll run around the chapel and they know how to work the TV up front so we can put Danny Go on, you know, for my four-year-old. Yeah.

[00:38:31] But, um, but I mean, my, my kids have grown up with it and it is, it is so funny. So the, the other day, my, uh, my, my four-year-old, he has a very, uh, tenuous grasp on, like, things that are real and things that aren't. So we'll be like, unicorn, real or fake? You know, we'll do that. Um, and somehow an angel came up and he's like, ah, angels, yeah, angels aren't real, right? My mom's like, and my wife is like, well, angels are, are real. And maybe if you get to heaven, you can see them when you die.

[00:38:58] And Peter goes, no, no, because when you die, you just go to dad's work. I love that. But like, he's, he's been around it. Gosh, one of my sons has been on two death calls. My, yeah. So Peter, when he was three, I was doing makeup on somebody, right? All the kids are running around. And all of a sudden I hear this, I'm doing makeup on somebody in the front of the, in front of the chapel. They're in the casket. And I hear clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk. And he's moved the chair up against the casket.

[00:39:27] He's climbed up and he's sitting there like this with his, with his arms on the lid looking at me. And he goes, huh, that guy's dead. Oh, yeah, there you go. Like, this is your introduction at, you know, to, to the, the great reality that we all face. So no, we're, we're, yeah, we're, we're definitely a funeral home family. You, you too, your, your kids are in the funeral home? I, yes.

[00:39:53] With me, my husband does not like that much to talk about death and funeral stuff. And that's okay. And that's teach their own. However, he has supported like just being honest and transparent with our children, which, which is wonderful. So Lydia, my eldest, she's six going on seven. So she's well aware. She's come with me a lot. She can tell you what it means to die.

[00:40:18] And she's actually so self-aware at this point that at the end of last school year, someone was asking her, death came up or something. And she's like, yeah, I didn't want to talk to them about it. So I changed the topic because they just won't understand. Like, there's just too much to explain. And I'm like, I'm glad you're aware that other five, six-year-olds really don't understand death. I actually brought one thing just to show.

[00:40:46] So she, she's very, I mean, she's very aware about death and stuff. We, when we went to Italy to almost two years ago, we went down to the catacombs, of course, and she wanted to see. And I started, like, we did the history lesson first. Like, first, she's well aware about World War, World War I, World War II. She goes through my history book. She sees all the pictures. She knows about Nazi concentration camps.

[00:41:14] She's so aware that she asked why they are called camps in comparison to summer camps. And why was the word camp used? Good question. I've never thought to ask that question, actually. Right? So we're down in the catacombs, and she's looking at the, it's one of the rooms where, like, the monks are, and they've got the bones into different designs. Yes. And she was four at the time. And there's Italian people all around. There's Italian women standing next to us, and it was us two.

[00:41:43] And she's like, she's like, look at the bones, Mom. Look at, those are, like, our bones. And the lady looks down at us and says something about, like, oh, she knows about death. And Lydia just turned to her and said something that was along the lines of, like, that's going to be, like, your bones one day, because you got bones inside of you. Just like they had bones inside of you. And this lady was horrified. What? She missed the whole message. Oh, my God, she was horrified.

[00:42:12] And the admission people were laughing so hard because they just loved that she, and they let her pick, like, a free gift at the gift shop because they just loved that she was, like, so aware of it. They're like, anything with a skull on it is yours, girl. Right. She, but she made this book at the end of last school year called Learning About Dead People. I was so proud of her because she was, like, it's not spooky.

[00:42:42] It's, like, there's a lot to learn about when you die and what happens to your body. And I was, like, yeah, there is. We were at Staples the other day because she had to, we had to renew or get her a new passport. And we were, I was photocopying our IDs. And I handed them to her to hold on to. And she's, like, Mama, why is there a heart on your license but not Papa's? And I was, like, oh, because I'm an organ donor. And she's, like, what does that mean? And I was, like, and so I went into a whole spiel of, like, you know, when you die, I was, like, I can't really use my organs anymore.

[00:43:10] But if I die in a certain way at the hospital or even if, you know, if I don't, my bones or my skin could be used or my corneas, which she was, like, not that I. Yeah, that's right. Forget that. But I was, like, you know, people need hearts and lungs to keep living and have better lives. And she's, like, well, I don't want you to give those away. I was, like, well, it would be after I die. You know, my body wouldn't need them anymore. And she was, like, well, can't they just have your big toe? No.

[00:43:39] And I was, like, I don't think anyone needs a toe transplant. But after talking for a bit, she was, like, oh, okay, I understand. She's, like, that's okay then. You can do that. And I was, like, great. Thank you for permission. I did not realize it, but there was a lady on the copier next to us listening the entire time. And after I was done talking to Lydia about it and we were photocopying something out, she's, like, I don't mean to be eavesdropping, but I have to just say that was the sweetest conversation I ever heard. And I'm so glad you were so honest with your daughter.

[00:44:09] And I was, like, well, I kind of have to be because I'm a field director. And she was, like, oh. Yeah, a little bit terrified now. Yeah, it is funny because I have had those conversations in public where we're just talking about deep, deep, dark stuff right out in the open, you know? But I think it's good. I think it's good for people. I think it's good for the eavesdroppers to see it. I think it's good for kids to be around it.

[00:44:35] Like, I think about my own kids and they just have, I mean, maybe it's because they're scarred. I don't know. Time will tell. But they have just, like, a certain amount of composure about all this. They're like, oh, well, this is just reality. This is just how life works. You know, my kids will often be like, okay, so dad at your funeral. Like, oh, thanks, guys. Appreciate you, you know, thinking that far ahead.

[00:45:01] But, like, but it's just so much the fabric of life. And my wife isn't, we talk about it a lot. But she'll be like, don't tell me the graphic details. I never want to know those. Or, like, we'll get together with my buddy, Lewis, is a funeral director in southern Minnesota. And we'll get together and she'll be like, all right, you boys can go swap war stories, but do it over there where I can't hear you. So, yeah.

[00:45:26] Because it is, I will say, it's nice with other funeral directors to, like, get those off your chest and just swap. And what I found, or at least what I've enjoyed recently, is with other funeral directors I talk to, we will start swapping war stories. And the thing is, we almost never one up each other. It's more like, it's just straight commiseration. It's like, oh, yeah, I've had to do that, too. Remember when this happened next? And you're like, oh, yeah, that also was bad.

[00:45:57] But then, yeah, on the more metaphysical side, when you're just talking about life and death. And in our house, we have, you know, my wife has been having, my oldest is 12 and my youngest is four. So we've been having, like, babies and death have been just coexisting in our house for a very long time. And to have both ends there, to just have them right out in the open all the time has been really lovely. I think there's also, there's tears of it, too.

[00:46:26] At least what I've been finding. Like, in these discussions we have with our kids or what we reveal about what we do. At least I've been made aware of that recently. One of my best friend just had an early pregnancy loss. And my eldest, my other child is two, Arla. She just makes feral noises at this point because she's my feral child. But the second borns always are. Yes.

[00:46:56] But Lydia, my older one, because we knew that she was pregnant. And so I had to tell her the news. Like, and I'd rather be honest with her. And I could tell there was some hesitancy, not only from my therapist, but also my husband. And I understand that as well. Because now there's another tier of possible fear of you could get pregnant and the baby could die in you. Now that's a whole different thing of, like, grandma dying, you know. Right.

[00:47:26] Oh, absolutely. Or I remember, so when my kid, when my oldest was five, I think he was five, I had a five-year-old die. And so I spent my father's day embalming this five-year-old boy who also was the same size as my son and who also loved Ninja Turtles. Because that's what the universe gives you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:47:49] And it really, when my son asked me why I come home and I'm just, like, crying in a mess, like, oh, I just had a little boy your age die. And you don't have to tell them everything you did. You know, obviously I'm not going to give him all the details. But to know that it's a possibility, I think, is good for a kid. And the thing is, like, I'm around it every day.

[00:48:14] So it's not like this is, like, a one-off thing that, you know, it's going to surprise you and happen. Like, death is just a constant in our household. And you just, you make friends with it and you make peace with it. And you learn that, yeah, like, it makes dad leave. But then also when you're out in a cemetery, like I was this morning, dad's hugging this gal over here by a grave. Yeah. Because, you know, so, like, it's more than just the inconvenient part or the scary part.

[00:48:41] It's also the really beautiful human connectivity part. I think so. I take my kids to cemeteries all the time. And I, natural again. But when Lydia was younger, I would say when she was, like, kind of walking age to, like, two or so into three, she would notice the different sizes of the headstones.

[00:49:06] And when she was starting to talk with me, like, you know, two going on three and starting to form those first sentences, she would, we talked about how those, many of them were children, the ones with the lambs on them especially. And so she would point them out and be like, like, baby, baby. And I'd be like, maybe, like, let's read the dates. And I'll never forget one time we were walking through a cemetery and she had a juice box. And she asked if one was a baby. And I said, yeah.

[00:49:33] And she goes up to the headstone and puts her juice box to it like it can take a sip. Perfect. I was like, but, like, that's, people are, like, they don't understand at that age. And I'm like, yeah, they do. They do. You need to have faith in children. Like, just because, you know, you want to protect them doesn't mean they can't handle information just because they can't spit it right back out to you. Like, people ask me, what age should you start talking about death? As a baby. As a baby. Yeah. Just make it normal.

[00:50:02] Make it absolutely normal. The stillbirths, too. So I write a monthly article for American Field Director magazine called Book Nook where I talk about a children's book about death. I'm very, I'm kind of strict now with the books I choose. Either they have to say the words death died or whatever in it. Like, be very honest. And for the most part, non-religious.

[00:50:28] Except I will find, like, the unique, really, like, I have a book for, like, a Hmong family. Oh, that's cute. So, yeah. What's your favorite children's death book? The Petite Mort is one of my favorite. It's a French book. It was actually in, oh, it's in this month's American Field Director magazine. And I tell people, just do the Google translation for families. It's really easy. But probably Death Duck and the Tulip.

[00:50:59] I always get mixed around. Death Duck and the Tulip. Or Duck, Death, and the Tulip. I always get mixed around. That was my first one I ever found that got me into kids' death books. My favorite is A Friend for Dragon by Dave Pilkey. Look at that one. Like, the Captain Underpants guy. And it's about, it's kind of about death. It's about, like, an apple that dies. So it's, like, really, really, really low stakes.

[00:51:28] And really beautiful. And kind of, like, I don't know. You'll have to read it. It's one I like. I keep copies at the funeral home when I have little kids come in. I'm like, here, have this book. And it's, like, not overtly about death at all. But I think it, like, talks about the topic in a very, I cried the first time I read it. So that tells you, that tells you that it's good. It's a good intro book for parents that are also uncomfortable with talking about it. I think having intro books for parents are also important. For parents. That's exactly it.

[00:51:55] And I think that's the thing about it is that, you know, when we talk about motherhood or we talk about having kids in the funeral home, like, it does always come back to the parents. Like, a kid doesn't walk in, you know, with presuppositions about death. Like, they get it from you and me. And, yeah, maybe it's a little on the nose sometimes. And maybe it's, like, a little bit too realistic and too close to daily life.

[00:52:22] But when it is your daily life, when it's our bread and butter, that's just the reality of it. And it's okay. I'm really grateful. I'm really – I could talk to you for so much longer, Amanda, on this topic and about, honestly, any other topic. We haven't even talked about your graphic designs. But, no, please, please, please discover Amanda like I have, dear listeners. Go to A-M-E-K, Amec Graphics. She has an Etsy shop. You can find her around on Instagram.

[00:52:51] So many cute funeral designs. If you're an undertaker, there are a ton you'll love. I – yeah, I adore your work. I am so happy that we got a chance to finally meet and talk about things of substance. And I don't really do much traveling. I'm not really on the national scene. But maybe one of these days I'll finally go to a National Funeral Directors Conference and I can see you there.

[00:53:18] Yeah, I'll actually be out in Minnesota next April for one of the – for Arrowhead, their meetings up in Duluth. Oh, well, maybe I'll go to that one. That one's not so far. But, no, Amanda, thank you for joining me and I'm just terribly grateful. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Well, that was lovely, wasn't it?

[00:53:42] I – after our discussion today, I'm just really struck with this idea of how we baby step our children into difficult discussions. And that really could be a discussion about anything. Obviously, death is the one that I talk about all the time. But how do we introduce – how do we introduce our kids to hard topics?

[00:54:10] Not just death, but things like divorce, right? Things like broken homes. How do we introduce our kids to the idea of vocations? We danced around the topic today of almost having to do a thing. You do the job you must do, even though you take a pay cut, even though the hours are bad, even maybe they don't accommodate you as well as they should for things like breastfeeding. Okay?

[00:54:40] But you feel you must. You grieve it if you don't have it. How do we bring up a topic like that to children? How do we let them know that, like, you are – there is something out there for you and you can go find it? And that, yes, it's going to bring you a great deal of gratification. But you also might suffer. How do we talk about suffering with children?

[00:55:06] I think it's extremely noble what Amanda's doing. Gosh, this woman's burning the candle at both ends. She's working with an embalming chemical company. She's mothering her children. And I think doing a pretty good job, it sounds like, don't you think? She's working as a funeral director. She's writing articles about what good grief books are out there for kids and families.

[00:55:36] And so how do you help kids navigate suffering? I don't know. I don't know exactly. But I think it's a great gift to be a funeral director, to be able to deal with a certain type of suffering very well. I can't deal with every type of suffering very well. Yesterday I did some work in the cemetery and I had to move like a two-foot by three-foot headstone and I had to throw it end over end to get it to the grave space. And my back hurts. And I was grumpy with my kids this morning because my back hurts.

[00:56:05] It hurts right now, in fact. And so I am not good with that type of suffering, okay? But I'm really good at the suffering that comes around death. And so how do we introduce kids to this? And Amanda said it, to just be honest. To talk to them at their level, but with truth. And the thing is, even when we're having discussions with other adults, maybe even adults in the industry, right?

[00:56:33] The proverbial boss when you're trying to figure out a time to pump and breastfeed. Right? You have to talk with them honestly. And just hope that they, as another human, realize it and see it and understand it. And while I was very tempted to turn this episode into clickbait and call it Death and Nipples,

[00:56:57] I can't believe how much I've talked about nipples in a podcast about death this episode. But the fact is, like you and I, dear listener, we both have them. And that's part of being human. That's part of the reality, right? The nitty-gritty reality of you mothers giving of yourself in mind and spirit and body to your children.

[00:57:28] And I can't thank you enough. I want to thank my own wife for nourishing and forming my own four kids. I want to thank all you mothers out there who are listening now. Whether you're funeral directors or not, you mothers who gave us the gift of life. I'm grateful to you. I'm grateful for your hardship. I'm grateful for your joys.

[00:57:55] I'm grateful for all the things that my own mother gave up to get me where I am today. I barely survived birth. I was three pounds, five ounces when I was born. I was in NICU for almost a full year. And then got out and got pneumonia and went back in. I have cerebral palsy, if you didn't know that. But my parents gave up a lot. They stressed a lot. They lost a lot of sleep over me. And I just want to tell them if they're listening, I'm grateful.

[00:58:26] And we all should be grateful to our mothers. I want to thank Amanda for opening the discussion on this today about something that I only see and I appreciate but I don't experience. So thank you, Amanda. Thank you, dear listeners, for being here again on DEATH AND. And a big thank you to our mothers. Amen.