Death And Formaldehyde (with Dominick Astorino)

[00:00:01] I was fascinated by all of it. The reverence, the fancy cars, the suits, the dead body up front. I asked my dad what those people are called who work there and he said they're undertakers and I said I'm going to be an undertaker.

[00:00:27] Death and formaldehyde. Hello everyone, I'm your host Victor M. Sweeney, licensed mortician. And today we are, well we're going to talk about a lot of things, but we are going to talk about Formaldehyde, the perpetual boogeyman of the funeral service industry.

[00:00:47] Now, quite frankly, I don't like calling it an industry. I like calling it a profession or just simply making the plain statement that I am an undertaker. Our guest today, Dominick Astorino, is an undertaker. He is also a professor.

[00:01:03] So, in that respect, this interview is really lovely. The first half, we really end up talking about undertaking, about the importance of what we do, what our calling is, how it relates to reverence and the role that plays. The second half of our conversation, we really hone in on formaldehyde and its use in funeral service and its use more broadly, which might surprise you.

[00:01:31] I really encourage you to stick around, especially for the second half. Before we get going, though, I want to talk about reverence. So, because I am a nerd, I love language and etymology. And the word reverence comes from the Latin reverere, which means to stand in awe of.

[00:01:53] And if there was one thing that I got from my interview with Dominick, I really was put in a state of awe. The man has marvelous self-control. I can see just in the way he speaks to me that he loves this profession. He loves this undertaking as much as I do.

[00:02:18] Now, we're insiders, but you, dear listeners, are probably outsiders. If you're, listen, I'm in the funeral world. I don't listen to a lot of funeral media, but I realize there are a lot of people that do. There's some measure of comfort that comes with it. And if you, dear listener, are outside the industry listening in, looking for a peek behind the curtain, if you will,

[00:02:41] part of drawing you into the show, the role you have to play in this whole ordeal of Death And is when you send your questions in, I'm able to answer them for you. There are a couple ways you can do this. Going to deathandpodcast at gmail.com is very lovely. Likewise, going to deathandpodcast.com, you were able to leave me a voice memo, which I like very much.

[00:03:06] So without further ado, let's get into those questions and see what we have today. Our first question comes from a listener, Teresa. Here it is. Hi, Victor. My name is Teresa, and I have lost many people in my life. My dad when I was 19, and then more recently my mom, both of my grandparents, et cetera, et cetera, many pets.

[00:03:36] Thank God, none of my children. But my questions are, number one, how long does embalming a person take? I know it varies, but like just generally, like is it like an all-day situation? And then my other question is, how long does embalming last? Again, I know it can vary, but, you know, is it a year? Is it a month? I don't, I have no idea how that goes. So thank you so much. I love your podcast.

[00:04:04] I find you charming and funny and easy to listen to. So thank you so much. Teresa, thank you. One, thank you for the compliments. There is never a compliment I won't take gladly. But to your questions, one, how long does it take to embalm a body? So here's the thing. You get a lot of mileage out of an embalming, okay?

[00:04:30] I would say that an embalming typically takes something like an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, somewhere in there. And it all varies. So in the embalming world, in the embalmers world, we talk about points. So places of incisions and injections or conversely drainage. So a point might be in the neck area to access the carotid artery and the jugular vein.

[00:04:57] You also might have another point of injection in the femoral artery. There are also points in your brachials down here or in your radial up by your wrist, on your thumb side. Your thumb side is the radius and the pinky is the ulna. Anyway, so there are arteries running all through there. So let's say I embalm someone and everything goes well except one side of their face does not embalm.

[00:05:22] Then I will open a second point on the other side of their neck to access the other carotid. So then they become a two-point injection. Now, that takes a little longer, right? So what if someone has terrible distribution and they become a six-point embalming or an eight-point embalming even? These things then take time. At the end of the day, I'm a slow embalmer. There are guys that take a real pride in their speed.

[00:05:52] But I think those guys are compensating for something. You know what I mean? Anyway, I take my good sweet time. And I just as soon work on a case for as long as it's going to take to create a positive outcome. So I want to reach each finger even if that means I have to open another radial. Because really, what are we being paid for but our time and our expertise?

[00:06:19] So let's say an hour and a half to two hours. Two and a half hours. Whatever. Somewhere in there. So not an all-day situation, Teresa. The second question. How long does an embalming last? Okay, this is where you get the mileage. But also it's a question that I do not know the answer to. So for the most part, I do not get to see bodies once they go in the ground. Right? We're not customarily digging up bodies five years later to see how they look. Although there are some cultures in the world that do that.

[00:06:47] It's honestly kind of impressive and interesting to me. But I have had occasions where two years ago I embalmed a gentleman and we couldn't get into the cemetery because of a flood. And then we couldn't get into the cemetery because the ground was frozen and there was a wall of ice. Then we couldn't get in in the spring because of the subsequent melting of the ice and another flood. So we ended up waiting almost a year. And at that time, his casket was held in the mausoleum. Now, when we pull this casket out, after a year of storage, there was a smell.

[00:07:16] And so whose job is it then to mitigate the smell? It was mine. And I opened up the casket and all the smell was coming from the mold and mildew from the condensation on the cloth interior of the casket. But his body looked like I had put him in yesterday. So at least from hands-on experience, I can say a year. But that also depends on ground conditions. That depends upon the person. That depends upon the amount of fatty, unembalmed tissue they have.

[00:07:45] So there are honestly just too many variables. But I would say a year, maybe longer. It's just, I wish I knew the answer for you, Teresa, but I just don't. But thank you for asking. It's one of my more favorite topics. Here's a question coming in from Michelle. Hey, Victor. This is Michelle Molle. I'm speaking to you from a place nearby you out on Maple Lake near Mentor, Minnesota. But I've been enjoying the podcast.

[00:08:12] A question for you when you are preparing one of your clients. I'm just wondering if you have conversations with them. Because I know if I were you, I would totally have long conversations with them while I live working on them. And I know you listen to music. But I'm just wondering, do you have conversations? Thanks for listening. Okay. Neighbor Michelle. Interesting question.

[00:08:42] So that is something that's come up kind of in the cultural milieu. With Six Feet Under, you see that kind of trope. I don't, mainly because I think you have to have two people to have a conversation, right? Um, so I would say the most I will have is when, let's say you're trying to move someone and you're like, come on. Cindy, would you just get on the table already?

[00:09:11] Because maybe she's heavy. Or you're adjusting someone and maybe the head block that holds up their head falls. And, you know, their head kind of clonks on the table. And you go, oh, sorry about that, Dwayne. Uh, but that's about it. Um, because at a certain point, my attention is so taken up with the details of what are the positions of their eyelids and their mouth? What do their hands look like? Are their toes getting color, right? Are we having any facial distension as we're going? So there are about 10,000 questions that I'm asking myself, uh, every minute.

[00:09:40] Um, I don't have a lot of time to, uh, to have imaginative chit-chats with the dead. I do think it's interesting, though. I, I think about the dead often when I'm working on them. I, you, you see someone's scar maybe across their abdomen. You go, I wonder what that's from. So it's not that I'm removed from their humanity. Um, I just don't really feel the urge to chit-chat. But thank you for the question, Michelle. I really liked it. Let's get into my interview.

[00:10:09] Our fireside chat with Dominic Astorino. I am so pleased to welcome to the show today, Mr. Dominick Astorino. Uh, Dominic is a funeral director at a fourth generation funeral home in Metro Detroit, uh, Wujek, Calicaterra.

[00:10:37] Uh, but he is more often, or at least to me, known for his work in the schools. He is a professor at Worsham College, uh, outside Chicago and at Wayne State University, uh, both in the mortuary programs there. Dominic, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Uh, so I, I gotta tell you, you're kind of a dream, a dream get for me. Uh, we, we crossed paths on the phone a couple years ago while I was working on my book, uh,

[00:11:05] because I had some questions about formaldehyde and its uses and kind of how it, how it actually works in the real world. Uh, and I want to talk about that because, um, I mean, let's face it, formaldehyde is, is the boogeyman of funeral service. I mean, actually, sometimes just being a funeral director is a boogeyman, but formaldehyde is worse, I think, uh, in people's minds. So I want to talk about that.

[00:11:29] Um, but really I want to talk about your story too, because I, I find that if my life would have turned out a little differently, I was born in Metro Detroit and. That's right. You told me that up in Minnesota. Yeah. Yeah. And my, and yeah. And my parents were on the cusp of moving to Chicago right before I was born. So I, I very well might've gone to either or of the schools you're at and said I didn't. But so tell, tell me about yourself. How, how, how the heck did you get here?

[00:11:59] Oh, well, I was a weird kid. That's how it, it started. Um, yeah, right. I was six and my, my mom's cousin died of ovarian cancer and something happened with my babysitter that night. I think that she got sick or canceled or whatever. So my mom and dad had to bring me to the funeral home as a six year old to see this, you know, my 26 year old cousin or my mom's cousin.

[00:12:26] And, and, uh, I was enamored, fascinated by everything. And I mean, all of it, the, the reverence, the, the fancy cars, the suits, that the dead body up front, uh, the visiting with the people, all of it was just fascinating. And, uh, in the car on the way home, I, I asked my dad what, what those people are called who work there. And he said, they're undertakers.

[00:12:53] And I said, I'm, I'm going to be an undertaker and I never changed my mind. See, and that's the thing about it is, it is very, um, to a certain type of person, present company, obviously included. Um, it is very appealing, isn't it? Like there, there is something almost magical, almost mysterious about the long black car and the black suit and the low lights. Like there, there is something, I don't even know how to put my finger on it exactly. Well, that's exactly it.

[00:13:23] I think no one knows how to, how to put their finger on it, the public included. So you and I now, granted, I might've been six and you might've been whatever age it was when you decided we were part of that public. And it was a great mystery to us. Yeah. And it was a mystery that appealed to us for our own individual reasons. But ultimately those reasons I think are coming back to this idea of reverence or helping our,

[00:13:48] our, our fellow man, helping, helping people, however you want to paint that or whatever you want to say, or however you interpret that, that's really what it's, it's coming down to. You know, it's, it's funny cause you, you, sometimes the trappings, you know, the trappings, let's say are appealing. And I, I do, I, you obviously talk to a lot of students. I talked to a lot of students worldwide at this point. And most of them have some interaction with the trappings of funeral service and they,

[00:14:18] they kind of catch the bug, right? Like you did at six. Yeah. Um, but then once you cross the threshold, like you, you get over the trappings or you, you see behind the curtain, right? Uh, it really becomes, I think, at least for me, something of a goal to pass that kind of wonder along to other people. Like, but part of the gift that you give outside of just laying down your whole life for a family

[00:14:44] for a week is like getting them comfortable with those trappings. Right. And like showing them that they actually do have power, that reverence has power, that quietness has power. Yeah. And that there's actual value in everything that we're doing. Even if I'm not necessarily talking about financial value, but the, I think when the public

[00:15:08] encounters us on those dark days, they, they should leave with a sense of all might be the wrong word, but of, they should share that reverence and they should see that Victor, my funeral director, or Dominic, my funeral director was so reverent and, um, you know, polite and kind and well-spoken and well-tailored and well-dressed and, and everything. And that I hope it triggers something in their mind, even after the fact. And they asked the question, why?

[00:15:39] And the answer inevitably is, well, because of my dad, because of my mom, because of my, my daughter. Yeah. That's, you want to know why, why these guys are wearing the formal black coats or they're wearing cufflinks or they, they present themselves polished. It's, it's because of us. Yeah. At two in the morning. Yeah. At two in the morning. It's, it's so funny. I had this conversation maybe a month or two ago. Uh, I had a family, you know, car, car people. Right.

[00:16:09] And they saw our nice new hearse and I'm like, boy, that, that's really nice. And, and what's your, what's your reply to that? When someone sees your nice new hearse, you say, oh, well, it's for your dad. Yeah. I mean, it turns out it's not for me. Yeah. That, that's exactly right though, too. You know, it's, it is for their dad, but, and it's also everyone in, everyone in town is going to see the hearse on the funeral, right? They're all going to see it go by and people are going to notice a hearse and that's going

[00:16:38] to, especially in a small town, ultimately beg the question who's inside the hearse. And then that could possibly lead to, you know, if they knew the person, how did that person affect my life? How did I affect their life? How's that family doing? It opens up even something simple like a hearse. It opens up dialogue in the community. It opens up a thought process. It opens up the potential for someone to be kind to someone else.

[00:17:08] You know, there's a hearse. Who's in the hearse? It's, you know, Bob. Maybe I should send Bob's son a card or give him a call. I haven't talked to him in five years. Yeah. It's, it's, it's just what we do. You know, it's, it, every, every detail of, of funeral service, I think is like that. There's, there's a value in it. You know, here's, here's one thing that I remember from my childhood in Michigan. So I, I grew up in Royal Oak, suburb of Detroit. I went to Shrine Grade School, which is right on Woodward. Yeah. I know right where it's at.

[00:17:38] Yeah. Yeah. So I, that's where I, that's where I had my first communion. That's where I went to school. And I remember as a kid, there'd be a, there's a great grand big cemetery across the road. Yeah. Roseland Park. Yeah. And I remember watching the hearse come by and you see all the cars pull off to the side and Woodward has got to be, is it six lanes? It's, it's huge. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge road. So yeah. And, but you watch all the cars just cleave and they leave this big open space and the hearse

[00:18:05] comes by with the flashing lights and all the cars with their hazards on. And I always really admired that. And then my, when we buried my great grandpa in Lansing, Michigan, same thing. We go out to the cemetery, everybody goes off to the side. He was a veteran. They had the little, the little American flags on there and you know, everyone gets out of their, you know, they stop and the guys that are veterans get out of their car and they salute as the hearse, you know, just random guys in their, you know, coveralls and jeans.

[00:18:33] And that made a real impact on me when I was a kid. And I don't know if that's standard across Michigan, but I'll tell you, it is not standard Minnesota. Minnesota and it drives me up the wall. And maybe it's because I was inoculated, you know, with this early, but it drives me up the wall. I'll be going through town in my hearse with the lights flashing and people are still trying to like drive to get to the pharmacy. Right. And so my, my boss hates it, but I always drive smack in the middle of the road.

[00:19:03] So then it forces them to pull over. He's like, you can't drive in the middle. I can do whatever I want. Uh, it turns out my County sheriffs have never written a parking ticket. So there's certainly not going to ticket me for driving in the middle of the road and making people stop. Yeah. You can't do that on Woodward though. Not anymore. No, that's, that's probably true enough, but people, people, do they still pull over? It depends. And so in the, the suburbs of Metro Detroit where it's very busy now, I would say probably not.

[00:19:33] But once you get out into like the, uh, I'm going to be a total Michigander, but in like the thumb. Do this, do this for our, for our viewers. Certainly up there, people are pulling off the side of the road, but those are small towns and it, there's a really good chance those people know the person that that's in the hearse or know the people that are in the procession. So. I love it. And I, I miss it. I had, I had somebody online comment just the other day.

[00:19:59] They're like, you know, the funeral home I worked at in San Francisco, all the directors used to wear tailcoats to distinguish them from guests. Yeah. And I'm like, man, as soon as I'm boss, I think we're all getting tailcoats. Yeah. That would be the coolest possible thing. Like they do in the UK with the walking cane and the top hat and everything. Well, there's cause I, you know, well, well, I think, you know, just the, the funeral process itself has some solemnity and some reverence and a little bit of grandeur.

[00:20:27] Um, especially in my rural area, even most people coming to the funeral are going to be wearing slacks, probably jeans. Um, but I, and usually I'm the only one there in a suit. So what would be the difference if I doubled down and wore a tailcoat really? Yeah. I'm already sticking out. You would feel cool, but other than that, you know. I'd feel pretty cool. Yeah. So Dominic, um, tell me this. So you're, you're a professor.

[00:20:55] I should have brought it with me so I could show it on the screen. You wrote what I think is probably at least the new seminal work on restorative art. Thank you. And when we met each other in a mortuary conference at Duluth, I got you a copy of my book and you gave me a copy of yours. Yeah, we traded. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I have it under my bed, but I put a bunch of other books on top so my kids don't open it because, uh, it has, it has full color pictures and they're pretty rough, but, but

[00:21:22] tell, tell my, tell our viewers here, um, what is restorative art and what is the point? And there in your presentation, you said something very powerful. There's one question that we undertakers can answer and I want to make sure you circle to that, but tell us about restorative art. Yeah. So I'll answer your question first because it'll make it easier to circle back in that, that question. And what I, what I constantly bring up when I am speaking is can, can we see her, can we see him again?

[00:21:52] And I, I always say that, especially in cases of traumatic or unexpected death, that's, that's almost always going to be the primary question. That's going to be the first thing people want to know. So the, the textbook, um, board exam type answer for restorative art is the restoration of natural form and color to make the most natural appearance possible.

[00:22:16] But the real, the, the real definition of it is to, to transform the, the unacceptable into the acceptable. And that's how I view it. Um, and that doesn't just have to be in cases of, of accidents or trauma. I think when, when you teach the subject and when you, when you write the book, that's what people want to talk about because that's what they find most interesting.

[00:22:44] But even the, the, the person that, that dies without any of those defects or any of those trauma, there, there's a certain level of oftentimes unacceptability surrounding that death, whether it's discoloration, odor, uh, can, you know, the person's twisted up. Yeah. Even something as simple as I, I had a death a little while ago of a young woman from cancer and she died with her mouth and eyes open. Yeah.

[00:23:11] And I, I went up to the hospital floor and like her hair is all askew and her mouth and eyes are open. And, um, even just something as simple as that and not looking so gray and pallid, like, which to you and me is an easy fix is a really big deal when it comes down to it. It is. And could someone see her in that condition? Certainly. Right. Right. Yeah. Right.

[00:23:38] And the, the, the power that we have or the responsibility that we have is to use all of these things, use our, our education, our mind, our heart, our eyes, our hands, and somehow transform that person to a more acceptable, more comfortable appearance for everyone that loved her. And there's, you know, there's going to be a lot of people that were, that knew her or that were loved by her and loved her in turn.

[00:24:08] And that, that's a great responsibility in the service to, to make this transformation to where certainly we can see her with her, her mouth open and with a terrible color and, and, and all these things. But there are a very select few people in the world that can transform her to something more acceptable that will make that grief journey a little bit easier.

[00:24:38] And that, that's us. That's you. And that's, that's myself. And I, I tell our students that there's, there are some people, especially on the internet and in, you know, social media that like to pretend that embalming and restorative art was this, this thing that was invented by Egyptians. And then it went away for forever. And then it was resurrected during the American civil war.

[00:25:06] And, and then the Americans somehow held onto it and capitalized on it. And now we sell it and we're, we're the only ones. And that's, that's false. Embalming has been practiced, not everywhere in the world, but in a lot of places continuously for the past 6,000 years. So what would I tell the students? And what, what I say to you right now is that the day that we, we sign up to, to become an embalmer, a funeral director, restorative artists.

[00:25:36] We, we join this ancient sacred right of people, this very small sliver of people across humanity who believe, I mean, with all of our hearts that there's dignity and there's a value and that the, the human, that the dead require and demand this respect and this reverence. And, and we, we bring that to them. And that, that's special.

[00:26:05] Well, I had, I've heard this before, but I heard it again for the first time in some time, but at the funeral of, of this gal, uh, a friend of mine, her mom came up to me and her mom and I pre-planned her funeral. And she said, Victor, you know, I've actually, I've always thought I wanted to be cremated, but now after seeing our gal here, she goes, I, I think I'm having second thoughts. And I thought that was really wild because you, you almost always hear the narrative going the other way.

[00:26:34] Um, whereas I think, I, I usually use the term re-present. I like to re-present. It's a very Catholic idea, but, but I, I, I like to re-present them back to their families, right? It's not that they've ever left. It's not that I'm taking them away. Um, they, they've always been present. They're still going to be present. I am just re-presenting them for a little bit. And that, that's our role, right? And that's, that's the hope that people like that person that made the comment to you are

[00:27:02] going to, are going to see the transformation and the reverence and the respect. And then something's going to trigger in their brain and say, this is the, this is the right thing. This is what, what should be done. And do we, I mean, cause here's the thing, right? You mentioned Americans capitalizing on this and I, I'll tell you, I'm, I don't know how I'm going to be as a businessman. I'm not really into capitalism, but, uh, but, but I will say that for whatever we charge,

[00:27:33] doing how, you know, putting your, your education and your imagination and your hands and your heart into it, whatever we charge, is it enough? Do we charge enough for embalming Dominic for what you get? Well, I, I mean, that's pretty subjective, right? There are some places that, that don't charge for it, but you know, there's certain regions of the country where embalming is, is, is very rare.

[00:28:00] And so I know that there's some business models where it's not charged for, there's other places that, um, it's one charge for this. And then, you know, there, there's add-ons. So different business models are going to dictate different things. But even itemized out, like I, I, I charge 500 bucks for embalming. Right. Like I don't want to overstate it, but like, it's such an integral piece of the puzzle on, on these occasions. Like it's almost priceless. And no one else can do it. Right. We're, we're the only ones.

[00:28:29] If you want to go back to that question that the family's asked, can we see her again? Can we see him again? We're the only ones that can ask. And I don't say that in like a, with a financial cloak over, I say it with a, it's a huge responsibility. Right. They can't, they can't put their, their daughter in an ambulance now and bring her to the, the biggest hospital in town and pay a brain surgeon or put her in a multimillion dollar

[00:28:59] imaging machine and, and figure this out. They can, they can ask you or they can ask me and that, that is priceless because it's not only the, the transformation that we talked about, but it's this idea that we should understand and, and believe in this idea again of reverence and respect. Not only are we going to make the transformation, but we're going to treat your husband with the

[00:29:28] utmost dignity and respect. And that, that might sound like a line or, you know, just cliche, something that undertakers say, but I would say that the overwhelming majority of us truly believe that. That's, that's what motivates that, that kind of work. I mean, cause that work can be tough. It can be upsetting.

[00:29:52] There can be some disturbing or some, some gross things that, that we have to deal with. But when, when viewed through the proper lens in the proper mindset, I think that the, the work that we do affords that, that reverence and that respect that people, people deserve. Well, and even, even something, you know, to you and I as seemingly simple as embalming after an autopsy, right? Right. Really complicated.

[00:30:20] Um, pretty, pretty, uh, pretty great, more, more work than a normal one. Obviously more suturing, more attention to detail. Um, there are just more problems you have to fix. And there aren't a lot of people who would say, Oh yes, I will just be fine with opening up your husband's cranium and pinching off, pinching off the arteries inside his skull. Whereas pituitary gland used to sit. Yeah.

[00:30:45] And watching it this far away to make sure that no embalming fluid is coming out. Yeah. Sometimes it, if people, I'll, I'll see it online or I'll, I'll hear comments about how it's, you know, it's a ripoff. Oh, and, and, and I'm going to do it at two in the morning, by the way. Right. So, so people will, sometimes there are comments made about it's a racket or it's a ripoff.

[00:31:08] And I kind of think like, what, what would you charge for it to do those things that you just said to, to drive to your, a stranger is going to call you at three in the morning. You're going to answer. That's number one. You're going to answer the phone at three in the morning. And then you're going to get in your car and drive to their house. No questions asked.

[00:31:24] And you're going to, you know, pick up a, a dead person off the couch or off the floor and then bring them to work and then do that highly specialized work to make that transformation and offer the dignity and respect to allow the, the funeral process that the family wants that they're asking us for.

[00:31:49] And we're going to put up with the, for lack of a better word, some of the gross stuff. What, what would you charge for that? You know, if you, if you really think about it and you say you charge $500, I mean, that seems pretty reasonable. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I can't get the electrician to come over at three in the morning if I have a problem. And I, and I, I live in a small town. I know the electrician. He lives a couple of blocks away. Um, but it doesn't work like that. I live in the root canal at, at one 30 in the morning on a Saturday.

[00:32:24] Yeah, it is. No, it's, but it's good. That's the thing is it's so doggone it. It's so worth doing. And I think when you have, I mean, I know you have, and you can tell us about it if, or if you want, but I mean, I've had enough trauma in my own life. I've had enough death in my own life where even being on the inside, um, I step outside for a minute and I'm like, boy, that, that has value. And that changed my life.

[00:32:52] You know, the, the funeral director who took care of my now dead best friend, um, couldn't have been more thankful to him because I, yeah, I, I know how to do all the nuts and bolts of what he did, but I, but I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't have. Yeah. You know? Uh, and yeah, there, there, how can I ever repay that guy for what he's done for me? And he doesn't even know me. Yeah. Right.

[00:33:18] You, you think about these community events and I mean, not to be macabre or, you know, let's say a high school student dies in a car wreck or dies by suicide or by some terrible thing. And you've got not just the family, which is of course our primary concern, but you've got all these, these kids in school and all of the teachers and all of the people that have interacted with this person.

[00:33:45] And the, the text messages in the snapchats and the, the comments are going crazy about what actually happened to this person, how, how they look and who did what.

[00:33:58] And we can foster this, this environment to where they can come into a safe, beautiful place and, and see with their eyes, the reality of life and death and not necessarily be faced with the unacceptable facets of that death.

[00:34:22] And see the more acceptable and allow them to, to begin to process what's going on. I'm going to paraphrase because I don't want to mess up the quote, but Frank, Frankie Campbell, famous funeral director for Manhattan.

[00:34:37] He, he, he said essentially to, to create an atmosphere so serene and so sublime that allows people the opportunity to come in and use that space to heal is truly a service to mankind. And, and I, I believe that's true. I like that. Yeah, me too.

[00:35:00] So let's shift gears. I, being here an educator, uh, I said, I, I talked to you about my, when I was writing my book about formaldehyde use and I, we don't need to get, I mean, we can get as in depth as you want. You're the educator here. Um, and you, yeah, that's right. And you've, and you've educated me.

[00:35:25] Um, but I, I, I want to talk, there is something about how formaldehyde itself works, how the molecule works that, um, I realized after talking to you, you know, for years we've talked about it polluting our groundwater or being a poison, you know, and it's a carcinogen. Yes. Like you, you should not chug a bottle of, uh, permaglow. Um, but, uh, on the whole, it, it works differently than we generally conceive.

[00:35:54] So tell us how, tell us about the formaldehyde molecule. The, the molecule itself is, is a hundred percent organic. That's, that's the first thing that I, I always tell people because there's a, language is very important and words are important and data is important. And there's a big push for, um, all these things right now that, that I think are good. Green embalming and natural processes. Yeah. Right? No, no issues there.

[00:36:22] The, the issue is when information starts to become distorted or misrepresented. And so I always start the conversation by saying formaldehyde is itself 100% natural. It's completely organic. It's a carbon, uh, two hydrogens and an oxygen. It naturally exists in the cell of every animal on planet earth, including humans. And in 99% of plant life.

[00:36:50] Not because it was absorbed from the environment. It's just built in. It's required for the, the processes that, the metabolic processes that move our DNA and our RNA and translate and transcribe them. Um, so we have this completely organic molecule.

[00:37:08] And the reason that we use it instead of using things like essential oils or dry ice or all these other alternatives, um, some of which work just not as effectively is because formaldehyde has the unique ability to penetrate into the cell. And when we embalm, we're actually preserving the proteins of the body. Right?

[00:37:32] Um, I think embalmers understand that, but the, the public, they, they don't, that's off the radar. We're not worried about other things. It's, it's the, the protein. Right. Right. Cause if you, if, if you took a syringe full of formalin and you injected it into fatty tissue. Not much is going to happen. Yeah. But formaldehyde has this ability to, to slip between the protein molecules and essentially it uses its, its arms.

[00:38:01] That's the best example I can take. And it grabs a protein over here and it grabs a protein over here and it, it pulls as hard as it can until it bends the shape of the protein. And when it, when it bends the shape of the protein, decomposition can't happen because the way decomposition works is that enzymes and in other things in the body recognize the unique shape of the protein and they dock onto it and they destroy it. And that's decomposition.

[00:38:30] So by using a chemical that bends the shape of the protein, the, the enzymes can't recognize the protein and they don't, they don't dock onto it and they don't, they don't break it down. So the side effect or the consequence of this is that the formaldehyde molecule with its arms grabbed on the proteins is pulling so hard to bend the shape. It pulls so hard for lack of a better term, it rips its arms off. What does it become?

[00:38:57] It becomes carbon dioxide and a, a basic acid. It's the same derivative of the acid that ants use to sting us when they bite us. So formaldehyde is only formaldehyde if it's HCHO. Once it bends the shape of the proteins, its arms fall off. It blows itself up. It doesn't exist anymore.

[00:39:22] It's carbon dioxide in, in a basic organic acid. It's, it's dissolved itself. It's gone. So I understand the logic of why people think we're putting gallons of formaldehyde solution in, in a person who died and then we bury the person in the ground. And then eventually the person's going to break down and then they think, well, there's going to be a three gallon puddle of formaldehyde. And it's just going to go into the water and the soil.

[00:39:51] And although I, I can follow along, that's impossible. It doesn't work that way. Science doesn't work that way. The formaldehyde, as soon as it comes into contact with protein, is destroyed. It's also destroyed by the atmosphere. 78% of the earth's atmosphere is nitrogen. Nitrogen is kryptonite to formaldehyde.

[00:40:19] That's the one thing that will immediately destroy it. Really? Yes. Is that, is that why, I don't know anything about this. I mean, I only know the practical hands-on thing, but typically when you have a formaldehyde spill in the prep room. Exactly. You spray it with ammonia. Ammonia. And what's in ammonia? Nitrogen. Ha! Ha! Yeah. So, nitrogen is, is kryptonite. And nitrogen is the, the most prevalent element in our atmosphere and in our soil.

[00:40:49] And then aside from that, water dissociates and breaks down the formaldehyde molecule immediately. In fact, if you want to get really into science, if, if someone's listening and they think, well, how can that be? Because we, we mix formaldehyde with water. Why doesn't it dissociate?

[00:41:09] The, your standard bottle of arterial fluid has water and formaldehyde, but up to 25% methanol. And the role of the methanol is to wrap itself around the formaldehyde to protect it from the water. Because the water destroys the formaldehyde. That's how we can keep a bottle on our shelf for, for months at a time. Yeah. It doesn't, doesn't break down.

[00:41:35] So, on, on all fronts, the atmosphere, the soil, the water, inside the remains, this, this organic compound, this, this naturally occurring chemical is neutralized. And that's what we'd expect from something that's organic, right? Yeah. And like you said, we're not going to drink it. Arsenic, we could say, is, is natural too, right? We're not going to just. Right. Drink arsenic.

[00:42:00] My, my dad did his master's thesis in industrial psychology on asbestos back in the day. And I remember him as a kid, you know, you'd see those mesothelioma commercials and he'd be like, son, you could eat a tablespoon of asbestos and it would do nothing to you. It's when you breathe it in. That's the problem. Well, I mean, there, there's limits, right? Too much of anything is bad. There is, there's a reason why formaldehyde is categorized the way it is.

[00:42:31] But I've, I've found when I, I have these discussions with people and it's over the past few years, these discussions have become more and more, more common. They, they ask about the exposure and, you know, aren't you scared of getting cancer as an embalmer because formaldehyde causes cancer? If, if you ask them how, how much formaldehyde is, causes cancer? How much am I exposed to? No one, no one has any idea. Right. It's just all these catchwords that they see online. It's a carcinogen.

[00:43:01] And that, that's super scary, right? No one wants cancer. But when you actually look at the science and the data, it is, those numbers are so low. They're, they're well below, OSHA regulates, as you know, the, the amount of formaldehyde that we can use. But what, what people don't know is that there's an OSHA limit that's right here, but there's a metabolic limit that's up here. Oh, really? Yeah.

[00:43:29] So the, the scientists at OSHA at right around 1975 to about 1980, 81, they spent six or seven years studying how much of different chemicals and natural things are bad for humans. In other words, we know it's natural. So we know the body can break it down metabolically because it's inside of us and there's no issue, but too much of anything can kill you. Too much water can kill you.

[00:43:59] Right. Too much, too much ketchup. Right. Yeah. How much of this molecule is too much? And they established that metabolic ceiling up here. And then the scientists, uh, again, after seven years of research full time said, okay, well there's people who use this chemical at work. We don't want them to get anywhere near this metabolic limit because if something bad, you know, if they go over, they're going to be in trouble. Yeah.

[00:44:27] So the workplace limit, they took the metabolic limit, they cut it in half and they cut it in half again. And that's the OSHA limit that we, that we use at work. And yeah. And we all ascribe to that and test for it on a regular basis and all of that.

[00:44:43] And aside from that, if you actually read the studies, not, not the magazine articles or the Instagram posts, if you read the studies that test funeral homes across the country about actual average exposure. Again, we're up here. We cut it in half. We cut it in half. This is the limit. The average exposure is a little bit less than half of that. So it's like an eighth. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[00:45:10] And tell me, this is one thing I heard from you that blew my mind. So how much of the annual formaldehyde that's produced in the United States, how much does the funeral industry use? Less than 1%. And that, that's worldwide commercially produced formaldehyde.

[00:45:28] The other 99 point whatever percent is used by much larger industries like tobacco, paint, lumber, manufacturing. So that's another thing that I think is misrepresented a lot in the media or that, that people don't have a full grasp on as they, it's kind of like the, the funeral directors.

[00:45:56] There's, I don't think everyone thinks this, but it's kind of like this mindset to where we found something to capitalize on embalming. Mm-hmm. The Americans are the only ones who do it. That's false. We've already covered that. They're going to use a harmful chemical. That's kind of false. We just covered that.

[00:46:18] They're going to, they're going to leach it into the soil, into the water because they, they want to essentially make the money and doing the work. Yeah. So if we shut down the whole formaldehyde thing, if we block it, then there won't be any, any more left. It will eradicate this, this boogeyman, this problem. But again, the other 99% of it is used by. The rest of us every day.

[00:46:48] Everyone every day in industries that have substantially more factories or shops or. We need, we need to get a carpet manufacturer on here and then ask them about their formaldehyde use. Yeah, right. No, it's, it really is fascinating because I think, you know, in, in the two halves of our conversation, well, while they seem miles apart, right? We're talking about formaldehyde use in the second half.

[00:47:18] We're talking about reverence and the value of a particular type of service in the first half. Um, that is the, the nature of our work is that both of these things are smashed together. And, and, and people like you and I, the men and women that are doing this job are caught in the middle between both pressures between doing, I think the very good reverential, beautiful thing.

[00:47:43] And then also just the, the societal pressure of also dealing with a dead body and with chemicals and with other, you know, grieving people. Right. So like you're, we're caught in the middle, but boy, it is, it's a worthwhile and worthy place to be. Consider this though, too. Think of how long human beings have been preserving their dead for reverential reasons. Mm-hmm. How did we even discover that formaldehyde can do this so effectively and why?

[00:48:12] Like who even cared to figure that out? The reason they cared was because they didn't want to use harmful chemicals like mercury and arsenic. Yeah. But they still wanted the best quality results to make that transformation. So it took, you people didn't just guess, right? It took legit scientists and legit work to figure this out. And it wasn't for any other reason than we believe that this helps the grieving. Yeah.

[00:48:42] We don't want to be unsafe and we want to be able to provide the, the, the best possible outcome for the people who entrust us. That's why we use it. Yeah. And it's funny. It all, it all, it all comes back to the family basically. Yes. And, and I think that's, that's why we do it. If, if you're not doing it for the sake of somebody else, you're not doing it right. That's the reason that we exist. Absolutely. People can do it on their own, right?

[00:49:11] We all know that. It's not like people were doing it themselves before the advent of the American funeral director for thousands of years, taking care of their dead. They didn't like it. That's, that's why they started calling us. Right. They, we didn't just poof, we're here. We're going to take over.

[00:49:31] People didn't like having to take their dead children out of bed or washing their, their mom after she passed and making her more presentable and trying to navigate and figure all these things out. So they started asking for help and the, the immediate response from a very select few people that embrace this idea of reverential care was, yes, we will figure out how to help.

[00:50:01] And thus we were born, our profession was born. Yeah. And you, and you love it. You know, you, yes. Like, do I love having to pick up a child when they die? No. Do I really love having to pick up anybody when they die? No. But I do love everybody else. And I think that goes a long way. And we love that the, the parents don't have to pick up that child because we'll do it for them. That's right. That's what we love at the end of the day.

[00:50:30] We love that. I mean, that, that's unimaginable grief, right? That's, there's, there's so much that goes into that and that there's so many terrible things and after effects. And if that one or two things that we can do that they don't have to do is going to make it just a little bit more bearable, then that's, that's what we should do. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's what it's all about.

[00:50:58] Dominic, I really want to thank you for being here. This. You're welcome. This is one of those just beautiful, beautiful little fireside chats. And I. It's been good. I, I, I really, I really admire the work you're doing. I want to cross paths with you in person again, sometime soon. There's a potential for me to get to Worsham here in the near future.

[00:51:18] If, if I can get my call schedule figured out, because that is, as you well know, my, I don't get to choose most anything in my life, including when I have to be here for families. So it's just, it's the way of it. But I, I want to thank you for coming on. I want to thank you for your wealth of knowledge. Um, if anybody wants to reach out to you or find you, what's a good way to do that?

[00:51:42] If they have a question or they're, they're looking at school or they, they want to just pick a man's brain who's even wiser than me. You could just Google my name and I do have a big name, but if you do your best and try to spell it, or if you post it, if you just Google it, I have a website that has all my contact information on it. Love it. Love it. They can also find me online through one of the schools too. I'd be happy to talk to anyone. All right. Dominic, many, many thanks. And, uh, may God continue to bless your work.

[00:52:11] Thanks, Victor. I appreciate it. Wasn't that lovely? I really appreciate everyone who's listened through the interview. Uh, I feel like I could talk to him for a long time and I, you know, we might just have him back on the show. Maybe, maybe I'll just make him a regular guest so we can just talk shop. Uh, the first time we met in person was at a conference I went to in Duluth that he, we both presented at.

[00:52:38] And I, I swear we, we saw each other across the room and our hearts, it was like a cartoon, you know, they just led us across the room and we immediately recognized each other and started, started talking as two, uh, funeral nerds are want to do. Uh, but I, I think what's really lovely is that despite, you know, he works in a big city. I work in the middle of nowhere, let's face it. Uh, but our philosophies are the same.

[00:53:05] And I, I like where, where I've kind of gravitated towards, uh, you know, encountering you folks and talking about philosophy, uh, funeral philosophy, if you will. Okay. Online.

[00:53:18] Um, he's coming at this from, from educational, like a very solidly educational aspect, which I think is very compelling, uh, because you, you do need men and women like Dominic to pass along this information and, and not just spit facts, which I love. The second half of this was spitting facts. Uh, and I, I adore that. Uh, but also you need someone who, who also is deeply passionate about the people.

[00:53:46] Because there's more to this job than just chemistry. Uh, there's certainly more to this job than just accounting to make sure you're making a profit. But, uh, when you have someone who is both in tune with the people and invested in education and in the facts, that that's really where I think, where I think our profession shines. Because we, we are here to do the practical, right? We can't deny that.

[00:54:12] Uh, but we're also here to do the terribly impractical. And I feel like some days that makes up most of my job is doing impractical things for people who are suffering. Uh, because that's really, really what it's all about. It's about, yes, the person on the table in front of you, the person in the deathbed in front of you. But it's also about everybody they leave behind. And that's where the value is.

[00:54:40] That's why I continue to wake up on days that I would love to quit. Days that I ask myself, why the hell am I doing this? It's because those people need someone. And I am a part of that small sliver of humanity that can serve them in this particular way, at this particular time.

[00:55:02] And how lucky I am that it's been ordained that I will be here when so-and-so's mom dies to take care of her. How lucky I am that even though it wakes me up at 11 o'clock at night, on my night on call, that it was my night on call to handle mom or dad for a family. How lucky am I? How lucky are we?

[00:55:30] At the end of the day, it all comes down to gratitude, as it often does here. And I'm grateful that you have been along here for the journey. This has been another episode of Death And. I'm your extremely grateful host, Victor M. Sweeney. And I'll see you again next time.