Death And Architecture (with Brent Hull)

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[00:00:27] Modern architecture glamorizes the ugly. We've been Walmartized, right, where we expect the lowest price. And now the expectation is it's not going to last that long. But, you know, I'm only going to live here a few years anyway. It's just, it's bad. Death and Architecture.

[00:01:19] Death and Architecture.

[00:01:26] Lucifer of the home. You'll have to give it a listen. Let me know what you think. Before we get to that, I want to welcome you all into the episode and bring you in via question. We always get questions in, I don't know how many we get a week. Many, many emails a week with questions. Some we find on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram.

[00:01:51] I haven't yet had anybody write me a letter, but they'd be welcome to write a letter to my funeral home. Maybe we'd read it on air. That'd be kind of fun. But getting the questions, I think, I think, there's something about understanding the philosophy beneath the questions, right? Teasing them out. Sharing stories about the question at hand, not simply answering yes or no.

[00:02:17] So with that, let's go into the grab bag today. Let's see what we've got. Here's a nice question. This is from Jimmy Vercoe. Is it easier or harder to dress the deceased once embalmed? Okay. A little bit of both. So with an unembalmed body, they will typically be rather floppy.

[00:02:44] So it's easier to get limbs through shirts and pants and that sort of thing. An embalmed body, once the embalming happens, the tissues are what we call fixed, right? They're firm. The proteins have somewhat solidified, so you're not getting a lot of give in the joints, let's say. So there are ways you can get a body dressed, even with the limbs firm. But there are some advantages.

[00:03:09] So one advantage of dressing an embalmed body versus an unembalmed body is the risk of tearing thin skin and having bleeding and seeping and that sort of thing is somewhat decreased. Typically, if you've embalmed a body and you're getting them dressed, you know where maybe some of those problem areas are going to be before you start. So you know that, oh, there's an abscess on the leg or maybe you can see the skin is weakened there.

[00:03:37] You can put what are called plastic garments, stocking we might call it, made out of plastic over the abscess or something like that. So yeah, there are some advantages, some disadvantages. I'd say it's generally easier to dress an unembalmed body, but I like knowing that once a body is embalmed, you're not going to have any spilling, any purge, any seeping, anything unexpected as you're getting them ready.

[00:04:04] The last thing you want to do is pull on a sweater, let's say, and have them purge, you know, barf all over it. We don't want that, but good question. Here's a question, a friend of the show. Their username is MTZ2604. What's the longest you've had to keep a body preserved for a funeral? Three months.

[00:04:28] I once had to keep a body for three months while the next of kin was on an extended world tour. And so they were gone. Before they left, they said, hey, if mom dies because she wasn't in great health. They said, if mom dies, you won't be able to reach us. But like send us an email. We'll get back to you as soon as ever we can. And so we did just that, knowing that we are going to have to preserve her and retain her for a long time.

[00:04:57] We embalmed her very thoroughly. And then it just became a matter of checking on Ethel every day. Just check on her every day. Come into work. Go in the back. Say good morning. See how she's looking. Make sure no mold. Mold likes to grow under fingernails. Pro tip for you. So making sure those are clean. Everything else is clean. Dehydration hasn't set in. So really it's just a lot of detail work.

[00:05:26] But a person can hold for quite a long time. Provided we know that situation up front. So there you go. Three months it is. And I don't want to have to do that very often. I won't lie to you. That was a bit much. But it was something we could provide for a family that I think helped and gave them healing. Which is really the name of the game.

[00:05:55] Thank you everyone for the wonderful questions. I know I say it all the time about how grateful I am for it. But it really is special. You know, at this point in my career, I mostly just do funerals in my own little town in the middle of nowhere. But then I have this social media presence, which I'm wrestling with on occasion.

[00:06:15] And the highlights I have found are actually not just answering random questions off the web, but really interacting with the people that do send the questions. Or people who want to just simply tell me their story and say thank you for the podcast or the book. That's really gratifying. Talking with students is wonderful. I even had an interaction the other week with a gentleman who said he found the podcast.

[00:06:42] And he's like, you know, I realize now in my 60s that I might have missed my calling. That I was an actuary. And really, I should have been working in a mortuary. And we had a really nice discussion. Because I think at the end of the day, you know, we all end up exactly where we're supposed to. For good or ill. And even where we are as an actuary, you can change the world.

[00:07:11] You can change the lives of the people around you. And you don't have to have a global reach to do something good. Heck, most of the good I do is in my own backyard. And that's enough for me. And that should be enough for you too, dear listener. Now, I want to just preface my discussion with Brent and tell you, first off, that I'm, you already probably know, I'm a nerd.

[00:07:37] I have read so many books on architecture, on design. I use a lot of it, actually, when I design headstones. Because headstones are another place where we have this cheap personalization, this distillation of dad's life to, like, this dumb thing that he, I don't know, drove a school bus. When, in fact, there's just a deeper, more metaphorical, more lyrical way of telling that story.

[00:08:06] And we forget it for cheap personalization. As Brent will say, we put the sticker on it. And I want what I do and what I create to be more than that. And you, as purchasers of funerals, of headstones, of homes, you should want more than a sticker too. And granted, right, budget will always drive some of these things.

[00:08:30] Heck, my own house has cheap plastic shutters, okay? They're not functional. But I've done what I can. I actually rescued a piece of gingerbread from an old Victorian house. And I put it up in the gable of my house. And then I had my friend John, friend of the show, Anger. He made some others to kind of complement it from my own design. And we put those in the other peaks. So you can all do your part to make the world around you beautiful.

[00:09:01] I think we should strive for that. And so for those of you that live in a builder-grade home and you might listen to this interview and think, Gosh, Brent is harsh. And how am I supposed to achieve something like that? I think it just has to be done in a small way. One step at a time. So without waiting any longer, let's listen to our friend Brent Hall. Architect. Tekton. A builder.

[00:09:30] A craftsman. And a designer. And see what he has to say. The right business idea is there, but it's missing time and programming knowledge. Why? The IONOS KI App and Zeitbuilder sets your idea quickly and simply by a patch-it-eingabe up. Whether an app, website or a digital tool.

[00:09:59] The KI builds it and with only one click it live. Domain and safe hosting on European servers inclusive. Now start at 9€ per month on ionos. slash app. IONOS. Digital an ihrer Seite. Hello everyone. Our guest today is Mr. Brent Hall. He's the owner, proprietor, dreamer behind Hall Millwork and Hall Homes. He's the author of Building a Timeless House in an Instant Age, which is where I found you.

[00:10:28] I actually have the book next to my bed because I really liked it. But Brent, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm curious to see where this is going to go. You know, that's always kind of the fun part of mutual discovery. I've seen you on Instagram, but it's a different thing, I think, to talk with someone in real life and, you know, not ask prying questions necessarily, but one, just satiate my own questions

[00:10:57] about architecture because it's one of those things that I would love to know more about and I'm really interested in it, but I'm bad at math. And I feel like when I see something, I know it's beautiful, but I struggle to articulate why. And at least when I see your videos, I'm like, that guy, that guy's got it. He can articulate it. So can you tell us first, how did you find your way into architecture and maybe even more

[00:11:27] specifically, classical architecture? I found my way here through preservation carpentry. I grew up always like working with my hands. I was a, I like fixing cars. I like building things. I like doing stuff like that. Probably more of an artist than anything else. You know, I remember getting out of college and my one goal was to not wear a suit to work.

[00:11:55] And so the real high bar there for myself. So it's a noble goal as someone who has to wear a suit way too often. Noble goal. I like it. Yeah. As you wear your coat and tie. I was a history and English major and I, and I decided I was going to teach and maybe go to law school. I went to taught in a boarding school in Connecticut.

[00:12:22] And a friend of mine who'd been my best man at a wedding told me about North Bennett Street School, which is the oldest trade school in the country. They had the tagline at the time was the education and craftsmanship. The idea was that you joined, you're an apprentice, you get out after two years and you're a journeyman and you work to become a master. And so that was kind of how I, I got hooked.

[00:12:46] So I understood, I basically studied and trained on how things used to be built 200 years ago. And then looked at the way building is today and like, we're missing something here and something's not right. And, you know, my journey has been trying to figure out what's not right. And it landed me on classical architecture. So my, I've been doing this over 30 years.

[00:13:15] And my first 10 years were pretty hot and heavy on preservation, learning about preservation, learning about how to restore things, how to build things, learning from the past. My next 10 years was studying classical architecture. There's a group called the ICAA Institute of Classical Architecture and Art.

[00:13:39] They basically are teaching and training this way we used to think about architecture and building that we don't think about anymore. And I learned about the orders of architecture. I went to New York, did a bunch of their classes, just trying to learn as much as I can. And so that's an ongoing lesson. And then in the last 10 or 15 years, I've been working on build science and building so that things last.

[00:14:04] And so anyway, so I have basically put together my feed and my teaching that I do is really about how to build beautiful again. And what we've forgotten is lost art of building and then, you know, making things beautiful, studying classical architectural principles,

[00:14:27] which are really basically traditional building methods that work and applying them to today. I mean, that's very attractive to me because the interesting thing that I find about my own career is I have the front-facing part where I work with families and design services and that sort of thing. But there's also, at least in my world, the background part where I'm, you know, my medium is not in wood.

[00:14:55] And it's in human flesh, I guess. But, you know, you're working with your hands primarily, and that really underpins my own work with everything else. Well, I think that my whole deal, my goals are really to be a master builder. And so what that means is architect, the word architect means master builder. Okay. It's ARCA is master or chief or main, and then tech is about building.

[00:15:24] So master builder is what an architect used to be. And so what happened around the probably turn of the century, maybe the late 1800s, early 1900s, is the architect really became the primary builder and the person in control of how things are going to be built. Part of this is because cities and buildings were changing. You've got high-rise buildings.

[00:15:53] You've got plumbing needs in an eight-story apartment building. You know, how does that get put together? And the architect became someone who basically organized all these different skills into building kind of the modern city and the modern building. And the builder became someone who used to be historically, you know, would design the moldings, would build the house, would draw the plans, would craft the thing.

[00:16:22] And so master builder, in my mind, does three things. He builds, he crafts. So that means he's not just overseeing the work. He's actually doing the work. And he's a designer. Today, the architect does design. The builder does building. And never the twain shall meet. And I think that they should – architects should be builders. Builders should be architects. It needs to be combined again.

[00:16:45] And so having the skills to work with your hands, in my mind, is vital to quality and successful building. Sure, because then it grounds what you're dreaming up on paper in reality. 100%. So I know that in Greek, right, the word tekton, right? They say St. Joseph was a tekton, right? Which is something, like you say, the guy that does it all.

[00:17:16] Whereas maybe our builders today are like whatever the Greek word for assembly is. I mean, that word – my problem with houses today is that they are being assembled. And so, you know, you go to the builder and the builder says, go pick your brick, go pick your, you know, windows, go pick your hardware, and I'll assemble it. I'll put it together. And we are building houses that make no sense because they're not designed around an ideal or a philosophy.

[00:17:44] They're designed around a budget. They're designed around, you know, I can afford, you know, 3,000 square feet. You got $250 a square feet. There's my monthly payment. There's how much I'm going to owe. So, you know, go build it. Whereas – and what that means is our houses have no style today. There is – I think the last architectural style in America is the ranch period, okay?

[00:18:09] And the ranch period, mid-century modern and that whole thing isn't necessarily a beautiful style, but it is a style and it is recognizable. You drive through a ranch neighborhood and go, these are ranch-style houses. Whereas, you drive through new neighborhoods built after the 1980s and you're like, oh, it's big or it's a mansion. I mean, think of the word mansion and starter castle.

[00:18:31] Those are words that become coined in the 1980s as just kind of big, ugly, where more is more, you know. And it's basically a spec house. It's basically a production house with more square footage, more granite, more moldings that are meant to be grandiose. But the products are still cheap. The construction method isn't superior.

[00:18:57] And, you know, this idea of having an architectural style that defines us and culturally, you know, sets a standard for who we are, what we value, what's important is gone. Maybe it's a bit depressing to think that that is the style, right? Like our underlying philosophy is cheap and quick, big if we can get it.

[00:19:23] Well, one of the points I make in that book is that, you know, we can study the Egyptian pyramids and know everything about the Egyptians. You know, what their science and technology was, what they believed, you know, what their social hierarchy was, you know, their government. By looking at their buildings, what do our buildings say about us, right? What do our houses say about us? The values that we're communicating in the houses that we're building are not values that we really want to pass on to our children.

[00:19:53] I mean, they're making a big show on the front, cheap on the back that, you know, what we present to our neighbors is much more important than who we really are. You know, we're building bigger houses than we really need. We're practicing and our houses reflect a value proposition that's really unfortunate.

[00:20:17] And someone coming in looking at who we are and what we are by our buildings, you know, it doesn't say good things about our culture. Well, and I can, there's a quote by Eric Gill, who was an awful person, by the way, really good designer, awful person. I believe that. But he says something like, our houses today, and he was speaking, you know, after kind of the Victorian era.

[00:20:44] But he said, our houses are Queen Anne on the front and Mary Jane in the back. And I think, so I have a friend that just built a house in a McMansion neighborhood. And I was driving through it. So my parents at one time had a house in a McMansion neighborhood. And I was driving through this new neighborhood of McMansions.

[00:21:08] And I was like, well, these are more beautiful than maybe the early 2000s or 90s McMansion neighborhoods. Like you have these kind of craftsman elements, but like the proportions, I mean, I'm not a pro, but I'm like, these proportions are wrong. Like that, the pillars out front, like while they have a craftsman look, are not, they're too big.

[00:21:33] Or there was one I recall specifically, it has like an eyebrow dormer above the garage that doesn't extend over both garage doors. And then also it's just kind of floating there and it's underneath the gable. And I'm like, well, what? Why even have it? You know? And like there is, I think, an attempt to kind of call back some of these beautiful things.

[00:21:56] And maybe things that were at one time practical on a home, like they had a function, but we're only pulling back the form. And I guess, you know, for my part, I kind of see that everywhere. Like we, you have, let's say you have a funeral and it's maybe a secular funeral in a secular venue. And you have all the pieces and parts of like what maybe an old Catholic funeral would be.

[00:22:26] And you do it. And I encourage people to do these various things, but like they don't, they don't always know why. Like they, they don't have the underlying philosophy to know like, well, why should we talk about, you know, what is next? Even just for ourselves. Like, why should we talk about things that are in, you know, moving, looking forward? We should just spend all our time reflecting. And, and they don't have the philosophy in the background and say, oh, this is why we do it. But then they still yearn for it.

[00:22:54] And then when we achieve those things, we find that they work, but it's, it's hard. It's hard. I think in a time where maybe we don't always know what we believe, you know, we want to pull in the window dressing, but we don't really have like a proper structure for it. And like the, the half eyebrow dormer over the garage is like a great, great example of that. Yeah. The, uh, I've been speaking about this for a long time, but, but, but you're exactly right.

[00:23:22] And if you look at like a arts and crafts house from the 1910, 1910, let's say all the parts and pieces of the house are, uh, put together, installed, uh, assembled around a full design philosophy. That was, you know, simplicity, honesty, uh, uh, integrity. Right.

[00:23:46] And it was a rejection of the Victorian architecture, which was so showing over the top and, and, and thought to be frivolous, right? Let's, let's, let's build something that's honest, no ornamentation, just have ornamentation. Let's have things that are there on purpose. And so the brackets that support the Eve are kind of flat and plain. There's no more carving on it that you'd have seen in the Victorian period and go inside and the hardware is all flat and plain. There's no decorative plates. It's just simple.

[00:24:14] Um, even the moldings were oftentimes meant to be, uh, stained so that the natural grain of the wood can show through all of these ideals. Okay. Which you look at those houses and they're, and they're just, they're philosophy driven. They're, they're, they're built around an ideal. Um, the houses today are, are built around an ideal curb appeal, right? That, that you are, you're trying to make a show from the street.

[00:24:40] You're trying to be impressive and realize that the designer, the architect is gone. Okay. He's no longer less than 2% of houses today are architect driven. And, and on top of that, only about 2% of architects are track classically trained. And so you're, you're looking at a very, very low percentage of good architect driven houses today. Most houses are built by, uh, um, production builders. Okay.

[00:25:10] If you look at, there's a million houses built in a year, um, you know, a vast majority of them are, uh, starter houses or, you know, semi custom houses, you know, built by, um, you know, uh, small custom builders who are, who think that because their houses sell, they don't need to be well designed. Right. Or think that they already are well designed because they sell. Okay.

[00:25:36] The homeowner thinks that because someone designed it, someone put it together because it's been built that someone surely designed it. And those two things aren't happening. And so we end up with ugly houses, with bad details, with ugly elements that you can see. You drove through that neighborhood. You're not trained in this world and you see it. Okay.

[00:26:00] So my Instagram blew up when I started doing these flip up videos of showing people traditional building methods on a new house. And they were like, yes, I knew something was wrong. I knew something was bad. I knew that wasn't working. And so, um, anyway, I, it, it, there's, you're exactly right that there was a philosophy driving those houses that isn't prevalent today. That isn't there.

[00:26:26] And we were building ugly houses where, where, where the vast majority of the houses were building are ugly. Well, and, and so then the, the value, you know, even for the one that's purchasing it is, oh, it's a million bucks. Right. So it must be valuable. And I, I don't know, I, I, I've been, my, my wife and I have been going back and forth where there's, there's a house for sale around the corner from me, which is an old house that's been added onto a bunch of times.

[00:26:53] And it's, it's twice as big as my house and it's got like beautiful living, it's a beautiful house. Okay. And it's got beautiful living spaces and all these things I don't have kind of a funky layout. Cause that's what happens when you, when you build onto an old house, like six times. Um, but then I, I look at my own house, which was finished in 1900 and I'm like, well, it might not be perfect and it might not be, you know, big enough for modern sensibility. Um, but there are things about it that are really beautiful.

[00:27:23] Like it's, it's probably what I would call like, like folk Victorian, you know, it's like after the Victorian period, but it's got like beautiful doorknobs and beautiful hinges. And we're going to get the floors. We tried to redo the floors ourself and we moved in and I, we achieved it, but, uh, 10 years in they're starting to wear thin. So I'm getting the floors redone by a pro this time. Cause I can, you know, try to afford it.

[00:27:47] But it's like, man, I, I kept coming back to like, I'd almost rather live in a small place that is beautiful and can have my stamp on it than live in a really big place that like I didn't have my own hand in. And, and, and I don't know. And maybe, maybe that's foolish, but I don't know. I seem to think, you know, you have the transcendental properties, right? Of truth, goodness, and beauty.

[00:28:14] And, um, if you live in a place that's beautiful, like it is much easier to see the other two, the truth and the goodness. Cause it's just there on the wall, you know? I love that. And I agree. I think that, um, I tell people all the time if I had starter home money, okay. So I had, you know, 300,000 to 600,000, depending on what market you're in, where would I, where would I put my money? I would, I would not buy a house built after 1970.

[00:28:45] And so I would live in an old house. One, I think that they're better designed and more beautiful as you recognize. They're better built. They have more moldings. They have more architectural details. I mean, the amount of moldings that you get in a 1920, you know, uh, or a 1925 colonial revital house would never, okay. Will never show up in a, in a, in a new production home. The, the quality of material is terrible.

[00:29:13] The, the, the, there, it is built to be disposable. And so I, I wrote in my last substack that, uh, did you, that, I don't know if you read it. The, the, the one, the, the warranty for a new house in America today is one year. Are you serious? One year. Okay. So materials and workmanship one year. Okay. There's a structural defect thing.

[00:29:38] That's a 10 year thing, but for materials and workmanship, it's one year, which is, um, um, I think kind of the clearest beacon, the fact that our houses are made to be disposable. That because the way, the way of warranty works. Okay. Is that it becomes a mandated, you know, thing because people sue. Okay. People sue, sue a builder. Yeah. You know, well, how long is this supposed to last?

[00:30:05] And they argue back and forth and it gets worked out with, with different groups and different things. It's one year. Okay. Okay. That is shocking and criminal in my opinion. And so the, the, we are not making products like, like our whole thing as a builder is that we're building a house to last a hundred years. Now we can probably build it. So it'll last, you know, two or 300 years. And that is, that's without major maintenance. Okay.

[00:30:32] And so you're, you're, you're, you're making decisions in order to, uh, make it last as long as possible without major maintenance. You have to do maintenance. Um, and so you're going to have to paint, for instance, you're going to have to do some, some things that are, that are maintenance things, but you can truthfully, um, if, if we're thinking about, if we just keep it at a hundred years, what, what decisions are we making that, that, and what products can we not put into the house? Okay.

[00:31:01] Well, you, you probably, you know, if insulated glass, you know, is last, you know, 15 to 20 years, are you putting that in a house? Okay. If, if the windows are, have a 10 year warranty, uh, are you putting that in the house? You start rethinking all of these different things that we're doing and you're like, well, what would I put in the house? You know, what would I start with?

[00:31:24] And so you have to think about and build in such a way that the water is protected, that there's, that there's not going to get, you know, that products aren't going to fall apart, that things aren't going to happen. And it, and it changes completely your frame of mind. And then if you look at the products being put on the new house, you'd be like, okay, that wood is a fiber board wood held together with glue. I can't put that on there. The sheathen on the outside of the house is basically cardboard. Can't put that on there.

[00:31:54] The, you know, the, the, the masonry sometimes isn't even masonry. It's, it's plastic, uh, things to look like stone that are nailed in place. The sheathings chipboard. I mean, just, you start going through it and you start going, uh, uh, uh, I can't, you know, I can't put any of those products on a house. It won't last. And so we are, we've been walmartized, right? Where we expect the lowest price. We expect this.

[00:32:21] And now the expectations is it's not going to last that long. But, uh, you know, I'm not, I'm only going to live here a few years anyway. It's, it's, it's just, it's bad.

[00:32:30] We'll see you next time.

[00:33:06] The right business idea is there, but it's missing time and programming. Why? The IONOS KI App on Site Builder sets your idea quickly and simply by Chat-Eingabe um. Whether App, Website or digital tool. The KI builds it and with just one click it live. Domain and safe hosting on European servers inclusive. Now start at 9€ per month. On ionos.de slash app. IONOS. Digital on your website. When we bought our house, it was, it was a wreck.

[00:33:36] But the one thing that was really, well, there are two things that were compelling. One, my, my foundation is field stones, just like stacked field stones with mortar. And it's, it's three feet thick. And I'm like, well, it has, you know, does it need some repair? Yes. But it hasn't gone anywhere in a hundred years. Like that's, that's pretty good. I can live with that. And the other thing that was really compelling to me was that the previous owner, well, so the same family had been in there since 48.

[00:34:06] And, um, the previous owner had a picture of the house after it was built. And there's, you know, the, the husband and wife that built it and they're standing out front and the woman's in an ankle length, you know, wrist length dress. And the husband's got his like suit and his hat on. And, uh, the sidewalk was boards, you know, it was a boardwalk. And, um, that probably was the nail on the coffin. Like there were other homes I probably should have looked at, but, uh, it captured me because

[00:34:35] I was like, ah, there's, I have a kinship with these people. Like I I've seen the people who lived here and there've only been, I think five families before mine in 125 years. And, um, most of them, I did a little digging four out of the five of them. Okay. Three out of the five, cause I'm not there yet are buried in the cemetery. That's at the end of my street. Wow. And I'm like, oh, like these, these people lived lives substantially similar to mine,

[00:35:04] you know, granted different time, you know, essentially a different place, but they also walked up these stairs and they also had families here. And if, if the family before me could have five kids in this house, why should I complain when I have four? Right. You know? Um, but there is, so this is something you, you said that I really liked, um, in your book.

[00:35:26] You said every house has a story and that folks like, they will almost always prefer a house with a story. Um, you know, and that's, and at least I find that's true for me because for as many problems and things that I've had to fix. And, you know, because I'm poor, I replaced my old window and the old, the windows I, you're going to, I'm sorry, you're going to hate me.

[00:35:52] I replaced the old, the original windows of the house, um, that would, you know, move the curtains when the wind blew with cheap vinyl windows. Cause that's what I could afford. I didn't, if I'd have had the time, if I'd have had the time and maybe someone to help me, I had been researching like, how do you restring old windows? How do you reglaze them? You know, all the brass, all the brass had been pulled out over the years or painted over or whatever. And I desperately wanted to save it, but I didn't have the time and the house was getting cold.

[00:36:21] But, but, but the story was there anyway. And, um, tell me about your own house. Surely, surely you must live somewhere that isn't slapped together. Unfortunately, I think people are disappointed to hear this. I live in a, in a sixties, uh, kind of a bad ranch house in the city. It is a, uh, uh, it's very comfortable. Um, we've, we've been there for 20 years.

[00:36:46] Um, you know, when I started out, I was buying historic houses and we were, you know, have them for a few years, then flip them. And it's kind of how we, how we made money. Um, because I too am poor and, and, you know, trying to, uh, I can't afford me. I guess I should say. Yeah. Yeah. I have the same problem. My, my only benefit is if I died, I would probably get my funeral for free, but that's about it. Yeah, exactly. And so it's a little bit, the cobbler's son wears no shoes. Yes.

[00:37:16] Um, and so it's, we're, uh, we are in the house we were in because it, my kids were young and we needed a good neighborhood and it's very quiet and there's big trees and we've, we've been very happy there. We've got a lot of friends in that neighborhood. And so, uh, we ended up moving for a family, not architecture. And that was one of the first times we did that.

[00:37:41] So, so have you, have you gone like full mid-century modern then in the house or, or is it a bit of a mishmash? She, uh, it's, it's, when I say it's a bad mid-century, it's, it's, it's basically a builder grade plan house from the sixties. I think 62 is when it was built, uh, a brick dealer, uh, named Burt Weeman, uh, built the house. And so he had a, just a plan book and he, you know, he kind of put it together and they

[00:38:09] used Chicago used bricks, which was really hot in the, uh, or a hot product in the sixties. And so, uh, but I've got like a steel window on the front. I've got a wood window on the front and I've got a leaded glass window on the front. Now you tell me how that's going to work. It just, it's just, it just, it's a, and so it's not like a pure, uh, modern mid-century. And so we have not treated it that way.

[00:38:35] We've, uh, and it, and it was redone a few times since before we got there. So, uh, it's a very comfortable house, but it's not a architecturally important house. Well, and I don't think there's anything wrong with comfort either. A hundred percent. Cause I, I think, you know, I, I've been in any number of, of great big houses and it's like to even sit down and have a conversation in the dining room. Well, for reasons inexplicable, that's a story and a half tall. So you can't even really talk.

[00:39:06] And so there is, there is something to be, to be said about being in a place that's comfortable, um, as opposed to a place that, you know, whatever might be fancier. I, uh, I, the reason I wrote that book was because I, I, I feel like it's the homeowner that has to be educated. Um, if we hope to have better built things, because, um, they're the one that needs to complain.

[00:39:35] They're the one that needs to, uh, they're the one paying for it. And so they have to be educated to figure out, uh, that we can do better. So, um, I do have one question for you. Yeah. Why do so many morticians work out of an old house? I love that. Is there an architectural, uh, thing going on?

[00:40:00] Uh, sometimes, I mean, my, my funeral home is in an old house, not, not like a fancy one. It's been remodeled and, and kind of all the cool stuff has been removed except for one stained glass window that used to be above, above the picture window in the front of the original house. Now it hangs in the, in the entryway. Um, but I think honestly, it's, it's very, I think it's based in history. So sometimes you'll have a new, a new place. We'll buy a beautiful building because it's beautiful and grandiose.

[00:40:28] Um, but think about this. So the word is, uh, the old term for a funeral home is what? A funeral parlor. Right? Right? So funerals actually started as events that at least initially took place in the home. Um, so you, you'd have the embalmer come to the house. They would either cool mom down or embalm her on site, which is insane. Uh, they do it on site and then you'd have the family dress, dress her. You'd lay her out in the parlor.

[00:41:23] Um, and then your friends would come to call over the course of a day or two. And then he becomes the caskets and then he becomes the undertaker. And then a generation down or two, it becomes the family business to bring everybody into your own house. Cause this is where you have all the stuff. Um, so I, I do sometimes, I think about this a lot too, cause you, you mentioned, right? The, the, the person who's having the house built has to stand up for themselves and has to educate themselves.

[00:41:50] Um, I spend a lot of my time, uh, at least on the web, trying to educate people about funerals and tell them about services. And, you know, I, I just did a podcast where I, I was like, Hey everyone, you have my permission. Ask the guy in the suit or the gal who's dressed up, who's the undertaker, ask them if you can get your mom dressed, ask them if you can do her hair, ask them if you can put dad's ring

[00:42:16] on his finger when he's laid out, ask them if you can carry the urn. Right. Uh, but, but there is like a substantial part of what I do, uh, outward facing where it's, it's really all about educating people to stick up for themselves. Um, because I, I think we're probably both inhabiting worlds that are, um, gate kept, you know, by, by the honorific of architect. So yeah, if there is an architect, it must be good. Right.

[00:42:45] If there's a mortician, well, he'll take care of all the stuff, which is not untrue. I still take care of all this stuff. Um, but I do spend a lot of time trying to get people to step outside their shells a little bit, even in my daily work, step outside their shells and interact with the dead, uh, whether that be the body or the urn, um, in ways that I think are helpful and natural and, uh, according to the whole. Um, and it sounds like you have very much the same, the same thing.

[00:43:15] I was going to ask as far as your Instagram flip, you know, your flip book, which I adore by the way. Um, are you doing that on houses that you are remodeling or are you just like picking a crap looking house and being like, we're going to make this better? Um, I can't remember how it started. I think that, uh, had clients asking to help and, and as an initial, Hey, well, this is what I see. This is, this is what I think would help your house.

[00:43:46] And then sharing those and people flipping out and going, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, do mine, do mine, do mine. And so, um, we, those are 90% of them are consulting projects where we are helping people build a more beautiful house, uh, by practicing, you know, tradition and classicism. So, uh, it starts usually people call us and say, okay, I've got these plans. It's not what we wanted. We're looking for this.

[00:44:16] Can you help us? What do you see? Oh yeah. Your windows are wrong. The porch is wrong. The, the proportions are wrong. Let me, let me, uh, and do that. That's what the flip up became. And so those are, uh, but yes, mostly they're all paid for. Um, and they are, you know, attempts to, uh, share the past and share more beautiful things.

[00:44:38] And so it's grown our design business from, you know, a part-time craft, uh, draftsman to now 10 architects and, uh, and growing. So, uh, it's, uh, the, the need for beauty. Okay. And the, and the, and this need for, for narrative and the stories that people are craving, um, is, is, is powerful.

[00:45:05] I mean, if you, if you, if you go to Europe and you look at their, their buildings or you go to the Cotswolds in England, um, you drive through these ancient towns and you drive through these ancient, uh, you know, many cities. And, uh, there, when I say there's a clear narrative there, there's, we, we know when it was built, we know who built it. We know, uh, the, the kind of the lives they lived.

[00:45:31] We know, you know, the materials that they use are regional materials. I mean, you know, these, the styles that we are familiar with today grew up. Okay. And so if you have a steep pitched English roof or French roof, it was steep pitched because there was a snow load and you go down to Italy and they have flat roofs and they have barrel tiles that are low pitched. Why? There's no snow.

[00:45:57] And so there's things that happened regionally that created these architectural styles that we love today. Well, when you try to take that Italian story and bring it to, you know, Boston or something, it can look out of place and you can look unless you really practicing the details and practicing those elements. And so, um, and how do you create the elements? How do you do that?

[00:46:26] When I, when I'm, when I'm working with a client, I say, they'll say, we want a farmhouse. Okay. When do you want your farmhouse built? You want it? Yeah. 1750, 1850, 1890, 1920, because each of those different periods will have different technology and different skill sets and different ways of building. 1750 would be timber framed. 1920 it'd be stick framed, right? They're, you know, just the windows would be different. They didn't have good glass technology back then, right?

[00:46:54] So all the parts and pieces of how they're made changes based on when it was built. The hardware changes, the windows change, the columns change. And so. Do you encourage regional materials then too? I assume. We do. We do. And, and, you know, we're trying, we're fighting for authenticity and that, that, the, the fight that you're encouraging your clients to have to, to, to make things more personal or better is the same thing we're doing.

[00:47:23] And that you, that no one in our world is going to fight for authenticity and beauty unless the homeowner does or unless we're involved. And so, or unless an architect's involved, who cares? And so, you know, when I say to people, you can't put that product in there. It's not like I won't. It's just like, that's inappropriate. We're, we're crafting this narrative. Let's say of a early 1900s farmhouse and hardy siding is not a product that we want to put on there.

[00:47:53] Why? Well, the shadow lines aren't as good. It's not going to last as long. I can't get the trim details that we really want. I don't want to use that product. And so anyway, it's so interesting to me because in my, and this, this sounds like we have the same problem actually, uh, because in my world, what I, I run up against this dichotomy and it's very, it's very obvious to me. Um, and sometimes I have to explain it. Some people see it and they recognize it, but they can't put their finger on it.

[00:48:21] Um, but it's personalization versus the personal. And so by that, I mean, uh, let's like, let's say your grandma passes away and a cheap personalization would be like, well, we're going to put a picture of a quilt on every stink, you know, single piece of paper good we're going to create. Right. Um, and so that, that's like a cheap personalization. Um, cause you're, you're boiling her down to just like these, these little facts about her.

[00:48:50] Um, and instead it's like, well, actually let's not do that. Um, let's make it personal. Why don't you bring her quilt, like bring her quilts that she made you and we'll put them over the back of every pew in the church. Like that's personal as opposed to just a picture of a generic thing. That's personalization. Um, you know, and, and I think that that's like kind of the battle because it's, it's, is it easier for me?

[00:49:16] Like, let's say we have a guy who's like every one of us, complex, beautiful, wonderful, terrible. Right. And it'd be like, well, he liked basketball. We're putting a basketball on everything. You know, we're, it's easier for me. Like it'd be easier for me to just like slap a frigging basketball and stuff and just ignore the guy essentially. Like he, he, he just turns into a basketball now. Um, and the, the thing is it's going to take a lot more effort to write an obituary that reflects

[00:49:44] his life triumphs and warts and all. It's going to take more effort to interact with the family as if dad is a real person than it is for me to just say, sounds good. Basketball. No, you're exactly right. That is exact problem. And, and what, what, what's happened today with builders is that a column or shutters or, I don't know, pediment have become stickers that, you know, well, I want something traditional.

[00:50:11] So, so let's put, let's put some columns on here or, or, you know, oh, it's missing something. Well, let's put some shutters on there. And the whole idea of a shutter, which used to be a functioning, important part of cooling and heating the house and how you manage safety and how you managed all these different things has become this bolt on screwed to the thing, not size properly, fake hardware kind of product that it's just, it's just cheap.

[00:50:39] And it's just like the same thing that let's put a basketball on everything. It's just like, it's these stickers that make our houses ugly. They're not authentic. And it's just, so we're both fighting for this personalization. And I would say it's like building a character in a book and our story that you're writing. Let's give this character depth. Let's give this character reality. Let's not, I don't want plastic. Let's, let's, let's have real.

[00:51:06] And so, and it's hard because I think, I think deep down every person has the ability to recognize beauty. Like it's easy. You don't have to teach beauty. I, so I, I go to this beautiful old Polish Catholic church in North Dakota, Warsaw, North Dakota, you know, obviously Catholic. Um, and it was really cool. A couple of years ago, they found the original schematics of the building, the original architectural drawings all by hand, of course. And they have them framed in the basement.

[00:51:37] And I was looking and from the ground to the very tip of the cross on the top, it is exactly twice as tall as it is wide, like exactly to the inch. And, um, and the thing is you, you walk up to it and it's staggering, right? It kind of takes your breath. It's, it's a magnificent structure on the prairie and it fills you with awe and you, you couldn't exactly tell why, but then you look at the math and you're like, oh yeah, that points

[00:52:05] to this Gothic ideal that things are substantially taller than you and bigger than you. And they point up as it turns out. Well, it, it, there's no, uh, yeah. I mean, if you've got, if you wanted to get into all that, probably be a whole nother podcast. Yeah. The, uh, the musical qualities and the math involved in music and the, the perfection and

[00:52:31] balance that goes along with, um, with, with, with those, all those parts and pieces. It's, it's, it, to me, it's God's fingerprints that we stand in front of a building like that and you go, I don't know why I like it, but I like it. And, and I don't know why I'm drawn to it. Well, it was designed around the human scale. So it was the, the parts and pieces are all scaled around an ideal. If you look at, you know, the way the Greeks looked at it is they, they, they were going

[00:52:59] to design their buildings based on the human body because they looked at the human body as being this perfect example of proportion and scale. And so, you know, my hands and my ears and my nose are proportional to the rest of my body. And the, uh, the same thing is true with these, with their buildings that you didn't have big warts or big ears or big things, all the parts and pieces mathematically worked together.

[00:53:27] And when you play a musical chord, it's beautiful and harmonious. And you have all these numbers and all these, uh, all these notes working together. And if I take my hands and just go bang, bang, bang, it's going to be a clanging thing. It's going to be ugly. It's going to be hard to listen to. Everybody recognizes beauty. Okay. And people say, ah, beauty is in the eye of the holder. That's not true. It is. There is an ideal for beauty and there is, and it's out there and we all see it.

[00:53:56] And we are building ugly things right now. And an unfortunate thing is, is that modern architecture glamorizes the ugly. Okay. Glamorizes this because they look at it and they say, well, this is, uh, um, you know, this is that, that creative genius, that ingenuity that no one else can see, no one else can do. And so we're celebrating this artist. Well, the artist just took a dump in the, in, in, in a, in a jar and is selling it.

[00:54:26] And, and, and, and it's just, it's gross and it's terrible. And so. It's true though. Cause I, I think there's something about the human scale that is, is moving to us. And, and there is, I just have to believe every profession needs to circle back to that idea of, of what is human in your particular field. And, and for you, it's, you know, it's the scale of a column.

[00:54:53] It's, it's the correct number of lights in a window that becomes human scale. And, and I guess for my, for my own world, it's, you know, making things about, about the deeper things, right. About like finding those things that make us human and accentuating those rather than just the sticker. Like you say, it's, it's a challenge, but it, it seems to me like you were very much up to it. I, if I, okay, if someone's building a house, if someone's dreaming of building a house, what's

[00:55:23] the best way to contact you to start this kind of discussion, Brent? Thank you for asking that. They, I mean, they just need to reach out. It's a, if they go to our website, brenthole.com or, you know, any of the things that I would want them to, to look at more stuff and look at what we're doing and see if there's, if that's something that clicks for them, if that's something that's important to them. We want to work with people that care about the details, that care about the narrative

[00:55:52] and the story and getting those things right. And so, you know, we work in all over the country, helping people build more beautifully. And so they can email me directly, brent at brenthole.com and, you know, tell me what they're interested in. We'll help them out. I love it. Well, Brent, thank you. Thank you for taking a leap and coming on my show. I know it was a big ask to say, hey, architecture guy, come talk to an undertaker.

[00:56:19] But, but as it turns out, I I'm always pleased when we find we have so many strange underlying philosophical things in common. So thank you for taking the leap. And, and I just couldn't be more grateful for you. Well, thank you, Brent. Very sweet. Thank you for the book. I can't wait to read it. It seems, seems like an interesting read. So yeah, let's stay in touch. Wonderful. Thank you, sir. Have a great day. Take care. Wasn't that just wonderful?

[00:56:45] I hope you enjoyed listening to that as much as I enjoyed participating in it. There's, there's an element he brought up that I wanted to tease out a little more. And he says, we, we, we, as humans have this desire for beauty and narrative. And he, he structures this in, in how a home is built, right? That it's proportionate, that it's beautiful, that it makes sense, right?

[00:57:15] It's kind on the eyes when we see it. But beauty and narrative, that, that it also tells a story. And I, I realized that in the funeral world, we, we do get caught up in the, in the grist mill of just cranking out funerals and stamping mom's picture on it, making sure the dates are right on the obituary, right?

[00:57:43] But at the end of the day, if we wanted to do the job well, we would seek out beauty. And we would encourage others to explore beauty where they see it, even if it's hard. Even if it's the, the beautiful and difficult challenge of, of seeing our loved ones, maybe before they're cremated even. Because there is beauty there, right? There is nothing more, if, if beauty is related to human scale, there is nothing more human than the human body itself.

[00:58:13] And to give oneself a chance to say goodbye to that very particular body that hugged us when we were children, that cooked for us, that lived alongside of us. There can be nothing more beautiful than referencing that. And as far as narrative goes, I mean, that's, that's what an undertaker's job is, is to create narrative, not, not just in the obituary, which I, I enjoy doing.

[00:58:41] But a narrative, help a family create narrative in the structure of a funeral service. Have it make sense. Have it, have it speak to both the past and the difficulty of the present and a little bit of hope for the future. And I'm struck with the idea that all these things could also echo within your four walls in a home.

[00:59:12] If you have an older home, like I do, the past is very apparent around you. In my house, it's in the cracking plaster that I have yet to repair. The present happens around me every day if I just slow down enough to be present for it, to embrace it, to see it for what it is, something that is happening right now and is gone soon.

[00:59:36] And I think as I slowly fix up my house, my crumbling folk Victorian, that I want to leave something for the next family that inhabits it. The family who lived there before in the 60s took out the pocket doors, knocked down the arches and stripped off a lot of the woodwork. And what they didn't strip, they covered with paint.

[01:00:05] But I want to bring some of that back. Not just because I like the character, not simply because I'm going to enjoy looking at the beauty when it is finally finished and I can afford it. But because it will be a gift that I leave behind for the next people. And that really is just a small way of what all our lives are. A gift to the people that come next.

[01:00:30] Hoping that they echo down the ages and people will think fondly of their great, great, great uncle. Whomever he might be. Thank you for joining us again on another episode of Death And. I'm so thankful that you're here. I don't know if this podcast will last forever. I doubt it.

[01:00:53] I don't know if what I say will echo any longer than it takes for it to leave the other side of your ear when you listen. But I hope at least it touched you for the present. And that's enough for me. Until next time, I am Victor M. Sweeney. And it's been my pleasure to have you on Death And.